Bringing Back Upsilon: Updated Top 12 Sink or Swim

Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
Actually I did tell that to DR's face. One skype, when he said he was coming back and decided against it.

You of all people should know my true character. I have told you many times to your face that the way you attempted to run Havoc was flawed. And you were only here for half of the FB fiasco, so I dont know to which part of that story you are referring, because you should have seen some of my messages to him as well.

And to say I dont lead is quite the ignorant statement. Especially from someone who practically up and quit this world. May I ask who took the lead in talks between Hive and Havoc? Who took the lead in making sure all worthy Hive members were able to continue on in this world when it had become clear the Hive was done for? TT, you should know better.

I have my methods and I dont expect everyone to agree with them.However, giving me flack for voicing my opinion when I dont think those that are leading are doing so properly and then saying I dont lead is all quite contradictory. Especially considering that despite the fact that the Great Havoc was once 5 alliances full of noobs, but I still had more of a following than you ever did.
 

Fortis Signa

Guest
So typical.
Your stubborn lack of perspective has you pointing a finger, meanwhile four point back at you.
Hey kids lets play a game called Oli contradictions:
TT is a figure head "queen of england"
You do know this was not my alliance originally right? Kirru had recruited a confederacy spanning 11 oceans and some 6 alliances before he left. Who managed to bring this all under one banner, form a functioning republic, warring against all alliances east of the meridian, and secure a top alliance rank all simultaneously? I'll give you a hint it was not Fakebrand.
Oli boasts of leading merger talks with Havoc
You do know you never closed the deal, right. Mainly because Mags and I would not just hand founder rank to DR and DN who quit the game shortly after these talks. I'm not sure why you would even bring this up as you said yourself Havoc was the place YOU wanted to be.
Famous Oli opinions and his following
First off, I hardly think the supposed "HW" counts as a following but more importantly can anyone reading this find me one post in the past 12 months where Oli gave anything close to a complement to a leader who was not in his own alliance at the time? You are a hater broham and that your real legacy on this server. TT was snuffed out 6 months ago and still gets made love in here, thats the difference between the famous and the infamous. The Troll is REAL and so are his minions.
Havocs Flaw
This is my favorite part. You guys could not beat us so instead you convince two founders to join up and bring most of our southern front with them, all the while you continue to say Havoc was flawed because we didn't have multiple defensive tabs. The system worked fine and even Failbrand was able to farm some 100K DBP in 48 hours using it. I love people who want to reinvent the wheel on the first day at the new job. Next time sit down and shut up you might learn something. Oh but that's right you know it all already, my bad.
Oli is a wingman
We all need a good Goose but lets face it you are no Maverick. The fact is you have always been on someone elses roster and until you run a top alliance yourself how bout you stop talking trash from the sidelines. You're right, you do have an opinion that is completely unique and all your own just like everyone else on God's green earth. Keep in mind discretion is the better part of valor and to be completely frank with you it's none of my business what you think about me.


Nice list btw <----- The facade of staying on topic.
 
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Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
See and that's the reason Havoc fell to shambles. Your ability to lie to yourself far exceeds your ability to do well, much of anything else.

Just some quick blurbs because no way can I possibly respond to that mass heap, nor do I want to. (Remember when I tried to give myself a word count?) Yea that didnt happen. You must really have been out of this game for a while because your memory is a little faded. Let me remind you of a few things.

On look at this sink/swim. Go back through all the pages and read my detailed analysis. I never said my alliance would be the only alliance to swim. Going well back I have given praise to alliances suck as TEG, even Havoc had some commendable qualities. Even mikos can say that I gave Special OPs praise while they were up and coming for their fighting skills compared to their weaker big brother Assassins Rites.
I acknowledged when my predictions have gone wrong, and done very little boasting (comparatively) when they have turned out to be true. I have even acknowledged when my counterparts aka "Oracles" have made some solid analysis and commended them when their predictions came true. Just because I never gave you praise as a leader doesnt me I didnt give praise at all. Its ok though, you will continue to believe and act as you want. Thats what go you your reputation in the first place.

I also know Havoc wasnt originally your alliance. Just like The Hive wasnt originally mine. However, your definition of a functioning alliance is mixed between being a successful alliance and a pack of wild simmers and turtles. You did a lot with what you took over, but dont make Havoc out to be great. Beause if it was, it wouldnt have folded when a small portion of its members left. It SHOULD have made you want to stay and fight harder. But thats just me, and in my mind it is what separates a strong player from a good one.

Also, no one person can lead an alliance. It takes a team. Each person in leadership performs specific goals, and in most cases the direction in which an alliance heads is usually based on an opinion of several. It is under this premise that the fall of havoc cannot be solely placed on you. You had plenty of help with that, and while their actions may have been independent of one another (firebrand vs Magnus), it all helped accomplish the same thing. Are those players not leaders in your mind? Maybe that is why Havoc was so split. If you thought of yourself as king, then maybe that helps explain why 2/3 of your top players chose to leave the alliance than stick it out with you. Did it ever dawn on you that when it comes to playing this game my goal is not to be a supreme leader? Heck having founder priv.s gives me the chills. This is a war game. I like to fight people, I like to talk smack, and I like to win. I have never denied any of that. However, I like to do all 3 things properly. And given my nature this does always seem to point me in a position of leadership. However, it is by other's opinion of me. Not my own.

Oh and finally, about the Havoc/Hive merge.. we all know what really happened, and how you asked me to be a founder (apparently despite my ability to lead). We also never intended to become Havoc.. in fact your unwillingness to compromise your "system" is what made us end the talks.

So please, continue to troll. That is all you are. Mikos has some troll in him, I have some troll in me. But at least we actually are willing to hold some type of conversation outside of being little --starters. You on the other hand only strive for meaningless conflict and spamming. Thats why you are back isnt it? That is the "TT Persona" that you wanted to create for yourself. You told me that yourself.

Well now I've said to much.. I need to go back to actually playing the game.
 
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Fortis Signa

Guest
Seriously Oli this is what you sound like:


I challenged all who can read this to find ONE single instance of you having a conversation on these forums with a leader from any other outfit with any semblance of positivity and I'm still waiting.


Oh and to answer your question,
the Great Havoc
you did.

But lets not pass up the latest Oli contradictions:

Am I a queen or a King, which is it hater?
And riddle me this, if what you say is true of Havoc being noobs why would you engage merger talks to begin with?
And since 2/3 of Havoc quit because of me I wonder if I can use this logic to say the same of the Hive and you?
Am I uber competent or incompetent, go get your story straight, Ill be right here.


I pulled this directly from an alliance I started. This will help you get some insight on what the difference is between you and an actual GM.

Founder Rank ~Figure Head, Queen of england type of position. This rank means you are to blame for everything that fails and lucked into any potential success. Earning this rank means you are not only infamous but loathed. With this status comes the responsibility of choosing allies and sometimes even enemies. It is far more likely they will chose you. Head of recruitment, mergers and acquisitions this position has the privilege of getting stabbed in the back regularly, lied to and about daily, and is expected to be available in seconds.
 
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Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
you are not only infamous but loathed.
check

With this status comes the responsibility of choosing allies and sometimes even enemies. It is far more likely they will chose you.
double check

Head of recruitment, mergers and acquisitions this position has the privilege of getting stabbed in the back regularly, lied to and about daily, and is expected to be available in seconds.
glaringly obvious check

So you were really saying?

Go home troll you have been gone too long.

Everyone knows that members of the Hive left because of shane.
 
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Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
..

Well done.. you have only just proven everything I have always said.. (smh)

The shane thing was a joke.. sheesh this is the externals.. The guy was a jerk and he definitely proved it as the world went on.. But yes the real reason the hive fell was from what happened internally.. how many times have I said that..

Oh and your favorite part.. yea you werent a threat. The threat was inactivity and a lower standard of players. AR has never been a threat to anyone in this world. The only alliance they managed to take out was Special OPs.. and you killed them when you decided to make them a part of your group of simmers.
 

foos

Citizen
I was in Hive's Skype for months, so please dont try to pull the spin on me now. I saw all that happened. Shane may have left, but the group went on for months after that. And if I recall it was the bunch of you in these public forums that took over leadership (nobody, cerulias) ... and let me tell you, that was entertaining to watch!

Towards the end people left because you never had any friends. Leadership was bad. And you had no direction. And then of course the non-threat AR moved in and took you all out in 66 and was doing the same in 55. Dude's comment above about turtling up was after seeing how ineffective his offense was and how his defense was just getting crushed trying and failing to defend people. Honey's comments above about quitting was after an op was launched on her. I've got other quotes where you are all talking about how you just dont know what to do about er-knee and have lost all hope.

And here is a great one as Honey realizes her CS just crashed on a birm wall (hmmm wonder who could have put those birms there):



And all the while you were on these boards making your predictions and putting forth your ridiculous propaganda. We were laughing at you all back then, and I suspect most still are now, because it is so painfully clear that it's just nonsense. Now go ahead and spin it all you like, but I'm not sure who you think you are convincing anymore.

(If we knew this back then ... just imagine what we know now 8) )
 
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BayouBrit

Peltast
I was in Hive's Skype for months, so please dont try to pull the spin on me now. I saw all that happened. Shane may have left, but the group went on for months after that. And if I recall it was the bunch of you in these public forums that took over leadership (nobody, cerulias) ... and let me tell you, that was entertaining to watch!

Towards the end people left because you never had any friends. Leadership was bad. And you had no direction. And then of course the non-threat AR moved in and took you all out in 66 and was doing the same in 55. Dude's comment above about turtling up was after seeing how ineffective his offense was and how his defense was just getting crushed trying and failing to defend people. Honey's comments above about quitting was after an op was launched on her. I've got other quotes where you are all talking about how you just dont know what to do about er-knee and have lost all hope.

And here is a great one as Honey realizes her CS just crashed on a birm wall (hmmm wonder who could have put those birms there):



And all the while you were on these boards making your predictions and putting forth your ridiculous propaganda. We were laughing at you all back then, and I suspect most still are now, because it is so painfully clear that it's just nonsense. Now go ahead and spin it all you like, but I'm not sure who you think you are convincing anymore.

(If we knew this back then ... just imagine what we know now 8) )

It really is quite amusing seeing all you "leaders" posting all of these scathing rebukes of poor Oliver :)
Obviously Oliver and our alliance are doing something right for you guys to still be trying to get an edge in the propaganda war. You all rattle on about "he said, she said" like old washer women gossiping about the old days. Wake up - that is history. Today we have a different reality and one in which you all are clearly failing. Question is whether you quit or pull yourselves together and try to give us a better fight. Come on boys, can't you do better than that? LOL
 

Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
foos.. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Go crawl back into that little VM hole you go into every now and then to take the heat off yourself.

I dont even know what gives you the right to question anyone's leadership. You declared war on AM and proceeded to hide in VM for a month. The fact that anyone follows you baffles me. Even members that are too loyal to leave your alliance message me all the time about what a joke leadership is. You must really live in a dream world.

Just to show you how clueless you are, shane never "left". He was the one that took over when Keltset had health issues. Then he stepped down because you are right, he was a horrible leader. Then people left the Hive because I negotiated the merge with AM. Almost all active players from The Hive went into either AM or what eventually became DM. A few like shane quit because he never recovered his love for this game after stepping down as founder. Others like wmhinton and Tone jumped the gun and joined Special OPs and AR because you guys sent out mass invited to all active Hive players after about 10 players joined AM. That includes sending me an invite. You may have been in our skype room, but we knew you were. You dont have the alternate room with 10-15 players that were involved in discussions about the merge.

And I am glad you have your victory in O66 to bring up constantly. Because without it, AR would be the laughing stock of the server. (Cant decide if that is Trinity or Havoc) For the millionth time, that was an experiment by The Hive. Sure it failed, but you were the reason players like Digtal and DR were able to take so many cities. You fueled them with BP. Its like taking a single city in another alliances' core only to eventually lose it a few week later. Sure you lost the city, and the alliance probably thinks its a win, but in turn you gained 3 city slots in a week's time. If you knew half as much as you claimed, you would be aware of this strategy, and we wouldnt need to have this conversation. But I digress.
 

ximikos

Guest
foos.. . You declared war on AM and proceeded to hide in VM for a month. The fact that anyone follows you baffles me. Even members that are too loyal to leave your alliance message me all the time about what a joke leadership is.
1. Foos told us all that he had some very serious Real Life closure to handle which I'll let Foos bring up if that be he wish. The fact that folks like me and a host of others stuck with Foos is a supreme compliment to the esteem in which he is held. The fact that he returned proved his faithfulness to his commitment as founder.

2. Leaders do unpopular things when they try to set the trend instead of follow it. I personally hate the gerbil wheel of world wide wonders Grepolis set up to confirm a world winner; but since I've yet to come up with a better idea how to do it, I have to cut Grepolis some slack. For better or worse, Foos has set AR firmly upon the gerbil wheel and it causes complaints and friction from those who like the priority to lie more on the front lines where the fun and action is at. But like Foos, I realize AR's promise to the East is to win the crown and win we shall.

3. And just friendly advice, be more respectful to Foos. When this world comes to a conclusion, it is sometimes the practice to invite some of the more noble enemies in to have a shot at the crown. Perhaps even the heinous betrayal of AM/DM may be overlooked in recognition to the amazing fact that four months into the war you haven't folded or renamed or reinvented yourselves.

You risk digging yourself into a grave with your keyboard. I may enjoy our bantering back and forth, but messing with Foos could prove very Foo(s)lish for you in the end.

4. AR is truly going to win this world, plan on it. Imagine former President Clinton's voice saying: "It's the geography, stupid."
 
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Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
and this is why only a handful of people post on the forums...

No offense mikos, but I take these externals very lightly. I enjoy analyzing the numbers and exchanging in the banter we partake in, but when it comes to defining myself as a player, this holds zero weight in my book. I prefer to let my action in game speak for itself. Whether that be my inability to lead, according to TT, or what type of player I will be come WW time. If you dont find that my actions make me noble then it is was it is. I will continue to do what I have being doing regardless.

I dont feel the need to be friendly with foos on here. He has brought much of this on himself. He was the one that wrote the Declaration and posted it on here and MM'd it to the entire AM alliance. I was just following in his footsteps when I took similar actions. I keep it respectful to a certain degree all while letting my inner troll loose every now and then. You stick up for him because he needs you to. Some of my points and accusations may be harsh, but I call it as it is. (I am not aware of any RL emergency foos may have nor do i pretend to be). That is what makes this so much fun for me.

For the sake of keeping on Topic!! My mid-month shorthand Sink/Swim:

1. Assassins Rite- Float
Will make it to WW obviously, but does not have the player structure to be successful

2. Anitmatter- Swim
Will make it WW. The end.

3. The Elder Gods- Float
They lost one of their top players, but still remain in solid position. What they do come WW time remains to be seen

4. DarkMatter- Swim
N/A

5. The Trinity- Float
#4 alliance in the 4 horse race for WW's. I question their efficiency.

6. Night Vision- Float
Way out west, with no real threats to their core. They may try to make a WW or 2, but definitely don't have what it takes to complete one.

7. The Wheel- Sink
Top members will be brought in to try to put one of the top alliances over the top in WW stage, but will it be enough? Are their players that good?

8. Heracletian- Sink
Same as The Wheel. If they are smart, they could really help out trinity.

9. Saints- Sink/Float
No analysis needed. They wont matter much come WW time unless they go where Wheel goes.

10. -Guardians of the West-- Float
They wont merge with NV, so they likely wont go anywhere. Just try to be a thorn in other alliances' sides. They may keep their focus on BP, but it wont get them anywhere.

And yes, this is my impression of a biased "My alliance will swim while every other top alliance will sink" Sink/Swim
 
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Congressman

Newcomer
9. Saints- Sink/Float
No analysis needed. They wont matter much come WW time unless they go where Wheel goes.
More along the lines of no analysis attempted. Saints has been a relative unknown in most of this world who has simply steadily plugged along, going from an afterthought to top 10. They jumped into this war as a mid to lower 20's ranked team, took on Elite and their academy Hierophant (who were both well above them in rankings), forced them to consolidate into a single alliance and yet still surpassed them. While not on par with the big boys yet, they have proven themselves resilient. Don't underestimate them.
 

Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
I am still sticking with no analysis needed. I really think the fact that Saints is in the top 10 speaks more to other alliances than it does to their skill. Congressman, you are their best attacker at #79, but there are only 4 other Saints players in the top 250. As far as DBP, you do have 11 players in the top 250, but many of them were originally from SCOURGE and we all know what I thought of them.

So basically, Saints have gotten where they are by their ability to remain untested. I will acknowledge that you have stood the test of time, and in a speed 1 world it is difficult to keep players active. However while you have been around longer, as an alliance you rank #18 in ABP and #12 in DBP. That is lower than some alliances that were created well after Saints had already been established.
 

ximikos

Guest
I will acknowledge that you have stood the test of time, and in a speed 1 world it is difficult to keep players active. However while you have been around longer, as an alliance you rank #18 in ABP and #12 in DBP. That is lower than some alliances that were created well after Saints had already been established.
ABP and DBP work more slowly out on the RIM Oliver. That's the main reason I migrated up from my humble O68 beginnings to become Lord Master #1 Player of O55 where DBP falls like rain from an Amazonian sky. It's BP desert out there on the RIM.

Face it Oliver Clothesoff, you got caught with your pants down on this one.

If this were a trial, I'd move for acquittal of this entire thread. Since I don't have a virtual microphone to drop to the ground, I'll drop my virtual crown.

snowman.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ

Great First Post Congressman!
 
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Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
You say that, but look at players like TigerFangz. He is in O25/26 for the most part yet is #4 in ABP and #15 in DBP. Or puma shadow which is #29 in ABP and #35 in DBP yet he is in O15. bbob in Elite is mainly in O58 is #30 in ABP and #64 in DBP. These players are much more on the rim than many of the Saints players yet none really match up to this quality.

As an alliance, Night Vision and Elite are equally on the rim yet rank about Saints in ABP and DBP despite being around about the same amount of time or less.

The world is what you make of it. Being on the rim is no excuse to limited success. You even said yourself that you are the perfect example of it. If this were a trial, the judge would literally laugh at your movement. And if you think that doesnt happen you are wrong.

You need to pick up your fake crown and return it for a refund. The Judge deems you not worthy.
 
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Congressman

Newcomer
Judging solely on BPs (whether ABP or DBP) is a seriously flawed metric for determining success. Too many BPs of the teams/players you mentioned are "empty", that is to say that the objective of their attack/defense was ultimately unrealized. Anyone can rack up empty BPs to inflate their stats but it doesn't necessarily make them a good or successful player or alliance. Take your example of Elite... Sure, they have more BPs than us but a simple view of the map comparing cities in their ocean(s) and ours shows that we made significantly more progress into their turf and taking their cities than they have into ours. Take away the cheap cities they simply founded in our ocean and the difference becomes even more glaring.
Additionally, while this is ultimately a war game, one aspect of war is diplomacy. You have to be smart about choosing your allies as well as enemies. We could have blindly chased BPs from the start but that's not the strategy we chose to pursue. Obviously it was a wise decision in a speed one world, because many of those who played it like a sprint (Hive, anyone?) rather than a marathon have flamed out and been consigned to the dustbin of Upsilon.
 

ximikos

Guest
Since you were the one dumping on the Saints that makes you the prosecutor. I just simply showed that your words (like the famous glove) didn't fit the hand of the accused. Like Martia Clark, you got sloppy and failed.

On the other hand, if post three is anything like posts 1 and 2, I'm gonna vote for you in November Congressman!
 

Oliver Clothesoff

Hekatonarch
Congressman you make some good points, but we differ on opinions when it comes to evaluating players, and that is perfectly fine. If you look at a majority of the top players, they are towards the top in BP. That doesnt have to do with trying to inflate BP. This game is defensively oriented, and in a single battle it holds the edge. However players that are constantly on the offensive typically crack these turtles. So just because you attack and fail one time doesnt mean that you are doing it just for BP. When the top players as far a cities go typically have the top BP, that correlation is far from "empty".

Now obviously if you start on the rim, you are at a disadvantage. The area is less dense and you have to work harder for BP and city slots. But I gave player specific examples where they overcame this, so it isnt impossible. As I have said before Saints havent been tested. was it smart to allign with AR.. in your position sure.

Also here goes another Hive reference. You say their "sprint" style led to their downfall, but thats not the case. There are 5 ex hive players still in the top 20 in BP. Thats pretty good considering everything. The players that have left us didnt do so because they were active attackers... they were weaker players when it came to longevity. While the 2 are related in some cases, it is more common that the active players are the ones that last longer.

And yes, you guys have grown faster than elite, no one is disputing that. However it is how you guys are growing that makes me question the validity of your "strength". Number of cities and total points mean nothing if you dont know how to use them.

Again this is my opinion, and how i choose to evaluate players. It isnt 100% spot on, but then again nothing is. However it certainly has gotten me far.
 

Fortis Signa

Guest
Ok I really tried to just stay quite but I can't help but point out some obvious truths to once and for all squash this absurd BP argument. The fact that some of Upsilons top BP ranks are still held by former Hive members negates the point being made. (think about it) Also pointing to exceptional rim players is a flawed perspective, we teach according to the standard not the exception. One thing to keep in mind kiddos, is birds of a feather flock together. Meaning if you are recruiting spineless bumms chances are your alliances reputation will suffer. Not to mention only spineless bumms guild gauge as it plagues gaming communities and has for decades. FB is a perfect example of this and more so the fact that BP does not define the player as it is only part of the equation. Worse yet it can be rather misleading. One thing is for sure any tool bag claiming to be USMC in an alliance I run gets an automatic Gkick.

P.S. Thank you to all the real members of our armed services.
 
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