Megalopsuchia
Peltast
To be easier on the eyes, I won't quote everything Deuce-Wolf and Sim the Coocher have written, particularly because most of Deuce-Wolf's long-winded response is off-point, irrelevant, and simply a distraction from the facts.
But damn, you guys either 1.) try to be masters of spin and want to take the meta game of "propaganda" to a whole new level; or 2.) are simply delusional.
Let's look at the facts. The beauty of the facts is that they cannot lie, spin, deceive, and manipulate, which is the defining trait of the Chiguanas.
The Chipmunks were members of the alliance that would become APOC after Cudi/Tone/Khennick and others did their best impressions of Benedict Arnold and swapped sides for the Chiguanas.
The Chipmunks had the option to remain, but for reasons that I won't speculate about, decided to form their own alliance instead. They were natural partners for APOC, because they were Angry at their former leaders who betrayed them and then started attacking them (ironically, in a very similar stunt they themselves were to pull against APOC), and a conflict between APOC and Chiguanas was imminent.
The Chipmunks always had the option to be a part of APOC. But they chose to remain independent. APOC shared forum tabs with The Chipmunks and stacked all the cities that were listed with long term support. It's beyond me why city after Chipmunk city would fall without hearing a peep in the LTS or Help! tabs, and why so few Chipmunks actually requested LTS. At the time, Jesmaec explained that it was because many of the targets were inactive. Is that the truth? I don't know. But that's the way it was, and APOC can be proud of the way we helped The Chipmunks. If this assistance was ever unsatisfactory, that was never communicated to me or the membership at large. I can't speak for the Council.
[As an aside, I do remember, because of my personal involvement, one city Jesmaec lost. He (she?) had made an unclear request in the forums for support, saying (s)he had been under attack for a number of hours. I sent him/her about 2000 DLU and 25 cerbs as reinforcement. I told him/her I had more if she was concerned about a CS. No response. Of course, the rest is history. There was a CS inbound. He/she had a ton of time to respond and rally support in the forums. Nothing. Not a peep. The next post was him/her reporting that said city was under siege.]
You accuse APOC of using The Chipmunks as a "shield/barrier to protect ourselves." And that's exactly what I will accuse you of doing now. See how easy that is?
And here's the difference between Chiguanas and APOC. Here's why it's TRUE that Chiguanas are using the former Chipmunks as cannon fodder, and that same accusation against APOC is simply manipulation and rhetoric generated by Chiguana in order to trick the same people they betrayed once to fall for it again.
A little over a month ago, when Chiguanas poached players from Angry Penguins, they rejected many, if not all, of the players they now have taken in. What happened in that intervening month? Did those players -- James the First, Thunderfuq, Gorben, G.R.O.M., etc... -- all of the sudden become better players, now worthy of invitation? No, of course not! Chiguanas now realize they NEED The Chipmunks. Mercy? Are you fracking kidding me? Where was the mercy one month ago? Cold, calculated expedience is the only factor at play here. I submit that circumstances have changed, and now Chiguanas needs those players to reinforce their crumbling outer defenses.
Meanwhile, the invitation for those same players to join APOC has stood from Day 1. APOC was consistent and transparent when dealing with them. Those players chose to remain in a different alliance. That was there choice, and they knew -- or should have known -- that there's a difference between being a member of a APOC and being a member of Angry Chipmunks, pacted with APOC.
As obnoxious as he is, to his credit, I do think Sim the Coocher poses a legit question that I think APOC needs to find an answer to -- why DID the Chipmunks choose Chiguanas and not APOC? Especially after they were already betrayed once by members of Chiguanas?
I can only imagine that it was a choice made from a self-preservation standpoint -- that even though they were burnt once, they'd rather side with the devil they know. They knew what it was like to be Chiguana prey, and they didn't like it. They don't know what it's like to be APOC prey. They will find out. We'll revisit this in a couple of months and see how they feel about their decision.
Of course, it's their prerogative to choose Chiguanas over APOC, and one I would never criticize. It's another thing entirely, to scheme and take advantage of swapping allegiances by launching attacks in the middle of the night under a friendly banner. There's no way to defend the integrity of those individuals or of the people that supported them.
Deuce-wolf, your ridiculous jibberish with respect to universality is a very poor attempt, from what I can interpret, as an argument for moral relativism. It's common for people to appeal to the principles of moral relativism when trying to defend bad acts. But seriously, are you really trying to say that lying and deceit are good things? Lol.
And Sim the Coocher -- not surprisingly from what I've seen of your embarrassing outbursts on the forums, you have resorted to the ad hominems to defend your alliance's lies and deceits. And on the one hand, you say that it's "just a game, don't take it personally" and then you cry about insults and bullying. Which one is it?
To Deuce-wolf and Sim the Coocher -- I am sorry your feelings got hurt by me pointing out the lying and deceit you participated in -- but don't you see that you guys are just lashing out at being held accountable? Pardon my dramatic analogy -- it's just used for the sake of argument, i promise -- but this is like a murderer, after getting convicted, crying about the prosecution for "insulting and bullying him," after the prosecutor has presented the a case against him, outlining the evil act he did.
So yea, TLDR, the facts are plain. Chiguanas are mired in lies, deceit, and manipulation. And the petty defenses -- spinning the truth and manipulative propaganda -- are in the vein of "methinks he doth protest too much."
But damn, you guys either 1.) try to be masters of spin and want to take the meta game of "propaganda" to a whole new level; or 2.) are simply delusional.
Let's look at the facts. The beauty of the facts is that they cannot lie, spin, deceive, and manipulate, which is the defining trait of the Chiguanas.
The Chipmunks were members of the alliance that would become APOC after Cudi/Tone/Khennick and others did their best impressions of Benedict Arnold and swapped sides for the Chiguanas.
The Chipmunks had the option to remain, but for reasons that I won't speculate about, decided to form their own alliance instead. They were natural partners for APOC, because they were Angry at their former leaders who betrayed them and then started attacking them (ironically, in a very similar stunt they themselves were to pull against APOC), and a conflict between APOC and Chiguanas was imminent.
The Chipmunks always had the option to be a part of APOC. But they chose to remain independent. APOC shared forum tabs with The Chipmunks and stacked all the cities that were listed with long term support. It's beyond me why city after Chipmunk city would fall without hearing a peep in the LTS or Help! tabs, and why so few Chipmunks actually requested LTS. At the time, Jesmaec explained that it was because many of the targets were inactive. Is that the truth? I don't know. But that's the way it was, and APOC can be proud of the way we helped The Chipmunks. If this assistance was ever unsatisfactory, that was never communicated to me or the membership at large. I can't speak for the Council.
[As an aside, I do remember, because of my personal involvement, one city Jesmaec lost. He (she?) had made an unclear request in the forums for support, saying (s)he had been under attack for a number of hours. I sent him/her about 2000 DLU and 25 cerbs as reinforcement. I told him/her I had more if she was concerned about a CS. No response. Of course, the rest is history. There was a CS inbound. He/she had a ton of time to respond and rally support in the forums. Nothing. Not a peep. The next post was him/her reporting that said city was under siege.]
You accuse APOC of using The Chipmunks as a "shield/barrier to protect ourselves." And that's exactly what I will accuse you of doing now. See how easy that is?
And here's the difference between Chiguanas and APOC. Here's why it's TRUE that Chiguanas are using the former Chipmunks as cannon fodder, and that same accusation against APOC is simply manipulation and rhetoric generated by Chiguana in order to trick the same people they betrayed once to fall for it again.
A little over a month ago, when Chiguanas poached players from Angry Penguins, they rejected many, if not all, of the players they now have taken in. What happened in that intervening month? Did those players -- James the First, Thunderfuq, Gorben, G.R.O.M., etc... -- all of the sudden become better players, now worthy of invitation? No, of course not! Chiguanas now realize they NEED The Chipmunks. Mercy? Are you fracking kidding me? Where was the mercy one month ago? Cold, calculated expedience is the only factor at play here. I submit that circumstances have changed, and now Chiguanas needs those players to reinforce their crumbling outer defenses.
Meanwhile, the invitation for those same players to join APOC has stood from Day 1. APOC was consistent and transparent when dealing with them. Those players chose to remain in a different alliance. That was there choice, and they knew -- or should have known -- that there's a difference between being a member of a APOC and being a member of Angry Chipmunks, pacted with APOC.
As obnoxious as he is, to his credit, I do think Sim the Coocher poses a legit question that I think APOC needs to find an answer to -- why DID the Chipmunks choose Chiguanas and not APOC? Especially after they were already betrayed once by members of Chiguanas?
I can only imagine that it was a choice made from a self-preservation standpoint -- that even though they were burnt once, they'd rather side with the devil they know. They knew what it was like to be Chiguana prey, and they didn't like it. They don't know what it's like to be APOC prey. They will find out. We'll revisit this in a couple of months and see how they feel about their decision.
Of course, it's their prerogative to choose Chiguanas over APOC, and one I would never criticize. It's another thing entirely, to scheme and take advantage of swapping allegiances by launching attacks in the middle of the night under a friendly banner. There's no way to defend the integrity of those individuals or of the people that supported them.
Deuce-wolf, your ridiculous jibberish with respect to universality is a very poor attempt, from what I can interpret, as an argument for moral relativism. It's common for people to appeal to the principles of moral relativism when trying to defend bad acts. But seriously, are you really trying to say that lying and deceit are good things? Lol.
And Sim the Coocher -- not surprisingly from what I've seen of your embarrassing outbursts on the forums, you have resorted to the ad hominems to defend your alliance's lies and deceits. And on the one hand, you say that it's "just a game, don't take it personally" and then you cry about insults and bullying. Which one is it?
To Deuce-wolf and Sim the Coocher -- I am sorry your feelings got hurt by me pointing out the lying and deceit you participated in -- but don't you see that you guys are just lashing out at being held accountable? Pardon my dramatic analogy -- it's just used for the sake of argument, i promise -- but this is like a murderer, after getting convicted, crying about the prosecution for "insulting and bullying him," after the prosecutor has presented the a case against him, outlining the evil act he did.
So yea, TLDR, the facts are plain. Chiguanas are mired in lies, deceit, and manipulation. And the petty defenses -- spinning the truth and manipulative propaganda -- are in the vein of "methinks he doth protest too much."
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