Rumors

To be easier on the eyes, I won't quote everything Deuce-Wolf and Sim the Coocher have written, particularly because most of Deuce-Wolf's long-winded response is off-point, irrelevant, and simply a distraction from the facts.

But damn, you guys either 1.) try to be masters of spin and want to take the meta game of "propaganda" to a whole new level; or 2.) are simply delusional.

Let's look at the facts. The beauty of the facts is that they cannot lie, spin, deceive, and manipulate, which is the defining trait of the Chiguanas.

The Chipmunks were members of the alliance that would become APOC after Cudi/Tone/Khennick and others did their best impressions of Benedict Arnold and swapped sides for the Chiguanas.

The Chipmunks had the option to remain, but for reasons that I won't speculate about, decided to form their own alliance instead. They were natural partners for APOC, because they were Angry at their former leaders who betrayed them and then started attacking them (ironically, in a very similar stunt they themselves were to pull against APOC), and a conflict between APOC and Chiguanas was imminent.

The Chipmunks always had the option to be a part of APOC. But they chose to remain independent. APOC shared forum tabs with The Chipmunks and stacked all the cities that were listed with long term support. It's beyond me why city after Chipmunk city would fall without hearing a peep in the LTS or Help! tabs, and why so few Chipmunks actually requested LTS. At the time, Jesmaec explained that it was because many of the targets were inactive. Is that the truth? I don't know. But that's the way it was, and APOC can be proud of the way we helped The Chipmunks. If this assistance was ever unsatisfactory, that was never communicated to me or the membership at large. I can't speak for the Council.

[As an aside, I do remember, because of my personal involvement, one city Jesmaec lost. He (she?) had made an unclear request in the forums for support, saying (s)he had been under attack for a number of hours. I sent him/her about 2000 DLU and 25 cerbs as reinforcement. I told him/her I had more if she was concerned about a CS. No response. Of course, the rest is history. There was a CS inbound. He/she had a ton of time to respond and rally support in the forums. Nothing. Not a peep. The next post was him/her reporting that said city was under siege.]

You accuse APOC of using The Chipmunks as a "shield/barrier to protect ourselves." And that's exactly what I will accuse you of doing now. See how easy that is?

And here's the difference between Chiguanas and APOC. Here's why it's TRUE that Chiguanas are using the former Chipmunks as cannon fodder, and that same accusation against APOC is simply manipulation and rhetoric generated by Chiguana in order to trick the same people they betrayed once to fall for it again.

A little over a month ago, when Chiguanas poached players from Angry Penguins, they rejected many, if not all, of the players they now have taken in. What happened in that intervening month? Did those players -- James the First, Thunderfuq, Gorben, G.R.O.M., etc... -- all of the sudden become better players, now worthy of invitation? No, of course not! Chiguanas now realize they NEED The Chipmunks. Mercy? Are you fracking kidding me? Where was the mercy one month ago? Cold, calculated expedience is the only factor at play here. I submit that circumstances have changed, and now Chiguanas needs those players to reinforce their crumbling outer defenses.

Meanwhile, the invitation for those same players to join APOC has stood from Day 1. APOC was consistent and transparent when dealing with them. Those players chose to remain in a different alliance. That was there choice, and they knew -- or should have known -- that there's a difference between being a member of a APOC and being a member of Angry Chipmunks, pacted with APOC.


As obnoxious as he is, to his credit, I do think Sim the Coocher poses a legit question that I think APOC needs to find an answer to -- why DID the Chipmunks choose Chiguanas and not APOC? Especially after they were already betrayed once by members of Chiguanas?

I can only imagine that it was a choice made from a self-preservation standpoint -- that even though they were burnt once, they'd rather side with the devil they know. They knew what it was like to be Chiguana prey, and they didn't like it. They don't know what it's like to be APOC prey. They will find out. We'll revisit this in a couple of months and see how they feel about their decision.

Of course, it's their prerogative to choose Chiguanas over APOC, and one I would never criticize. It's another thing entirely, to scheme and take advantage of swapping allegiances by launching attacks in the middle of the night under a friendly banner. There's no way to defend the integrity of those individuals or of the people that supported them.

Deuce-wolf, your ridiculous jibberish with respect to universality is a very poor attempt, from what I can interpret, as an argument for moral relativism. It's common for people to appeal to the principles of moral relativism when trying to defend bad acts. But seriously, are you really trying to say that lying and deceit are good things? Lol.

And Sim the Coocher -- not surprisingly from what I've seen of your embarrassing outbursts on the forums, you have resorted to the ad hominems to defend your alliance's lies and deceits. And on the one hand, you say that it's "just a game, don't take it personally" and then you cry about insults and bullying. Which one is it?

To Deuce-wolf and Sim the Coocher -- I am sorry your feelings got hurt by me pointing out the lying and deceit you participated in -- but don't you see that you guys are just lashing out at being held accountable? Pardon my dramatic analogy -- it's just used for the sake of argument, i promise -- but this is like a murderer, after getting convicted, crying about the prosecution for "insulting and bullying him," after the prosecutor has presented the a case against him, outlining the evil act he did.

So yea, TLDR, the facts are plain. Chiguanas are mired in lies, deceit, and manipulation. And the petty defenses -- spinning the truth and manipulative propaganda -- are in the vein of "methinks he doth protest too much."
 
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mccontracting

Guest
Who cares!! Each side will point to the other and lay blame and everything else, it does not matter. Play the game to win. We are not at all worried about anyone. We have good players and good execution. This server will be decided in many months from now, lots of people will come and go. Lots of things will change. In my opinion we have a superior position and the proper amount of players to win. Only time will tell. quite frankly all the back and forth talk is bordering obnoxious.
 
Megalopsuchia, I'll begin by explaining that I am not a member of any alliance. I am merely a player in the middle of highly ranked alliances battling one another.

You've painted some broad strokes in your recent post but I am particularly interested in the above quoted comments. You've expressed strong opinions regarding deceit and lies. I too have strong feelings regarding those.

You've labeled the entire membership of the Chiguanas as such, but surely the entire membership hasn't engaged in such behavior.

If you were in an alliance and in a position of authority, what would you do if you discovered members in your alliance were doing these things?

If you didn't have authority but were merely a member in an alliance and became aware of fellow members doing these things, what would you do?
This is the membership of Chiguanas:


jesmaec
Tsmoke81
General Tone
bulldogs13tv
ryanh3
Gallen
Emilio Este...
Candy Corn
Ace-Wolf
jham4u
Lady-Kelz
mcscrewie
Rewtee69
james the f...
kid cudi
Orulla73
Gorben
StraitRazor
GenesisR
twesley
Sim the Bui...
Kaus1
War Crimes ...
G.O.M.
Tullius Cic...
Ms kass of ...
VictoriousC...
Thunderfuq

There are 28 players. AT LEAST 13 of those players -- and probably more -- were recruited from an enemy alliance (or, as in this case, a pacted ally) during hostilities. And of those 13 players, at least 8 of them not only switched allegiances but carried out sneak attacks and operations while still an ally or immediately thereafter.

Shady to say the least. It's the Chiguanas modus operandi. They simply have no scruples. It's happened over and over again, in different circumstances and with different players. So it's clearly a directive from top down; it's a small alliance, and everybody participates; so I believe it's fair to label the entire membership has "deceptive, lying, and manipulative." It may be hard for you believe, but truly, the entire membership has engaged in such behavior, either directly or knowingly and intentionally supporting it.

I am not trying to dodge your question about "what would I do"... if members of my alliance did "these things," but "these things" is too vague to adequately answer. It's very fact-dependent. What I will say, though, is that I will not knowingly play with anyone currently in Chiguanas.
 
Who cares!! Each side will point to the other and lay blame and everything else, it does not matter. Play the game to win. We are not at all worried about anyone. We have good players and good execution. This server will be decided in many months from now, lots of people will come and go. Lots of things will change. In my opinion we have a superior position and the proper amount of players to win. Only time will tell. quite frankly all the back and forth talk is bordering obnoxious.
I care. And no one's holding a gun to your head making you read it.
 

Jessina

Guest
I am not trying to dodge your question about "what would I do"... if members of my alliance did "these things," but "these things" is too vague to adequately answer. It's very fact-dependent. What I will say, though, is that I will not knowingly play with anyone currently in Chiguanas.
At this time, I don't wish to dilute my focus with alliance swapping, sneak attacks and such but if you wish to put those questions to me, perhaps even in a new thread, I would answer your question(s) and provide my thoughts.

The part of your post I quoted previously, specifically deals with being deceitful, lying and manipulating. Manipulating is the only one of the three that could be considered vague based on circumstances. Lying and deceiving are lying and deceiving. I see no vague area to those.

So "IF" you were a leader in Chiguanas or in your current alliance and knew member(s) of your alliance were engaging in lying/deceit behavior (in game), what would you do?

If you were only a member, I ask the same question as above but changing it to reflect that you are a member only. What would you do?
 

jham4u

Messenger
mega - is this your first world? This is a part of the game. I have been playing for years and players switch alliances all the time, it happens. Some of my best allies and friends i have found on this game were once an enemy. You cant honestly say that with all the members you have that you have never taken in player from an enemy alliance. yes, maybe it could be viewed as deceitful to have them attack right before/after they flipped, but its the smartest move. should they of told you and allowed you to attack first? how long after a flip is it ok to attack? Please inform me of what Apocs etiquette is when recruiting an enemy for membership, do you make them wait a time frame before getting involved? and i know you guys have spies in other alliances, i could argue thats immoral but its a part of the game and frankly i have seen much much worst. Besides, you shouldnt be upset, the new chigs will just be more cities for you guys to take after our inevitable collapse
 

Slayer94

Taxiarch
MEGA u cannot talk about my friends that way what ocean you in i think i wanna pay you a visit maybe bring a CS or 2 with me
 

decky66

Chilliarch
There are 28 players. AT LEAST 13 of those players -- and probably more -- were recruited from an enemy alliance (or, as in this case, a pacted ally) during hostilities. And of those 13 players, at least 8 of them not only switched allegiances but carried out sneak attacks and operations while still an ally or immediately thereafter.

Shady to say the least. It's the Chiguanas modus operandi. They simply have no scruples. It's happened over and over again, in different circumstances and with different players. So it's clearly a directive from top down; it's a small alliance, and everybody participates; so I believe it's fair to label the entire membership has "deceptive, lying, and manipulative." It may be hard for you believe, but truly, the entire membership has engaged in such behavior, either directly or knowingly and intentionally supporting it.

I am not trying to dodge your question about "what would I do"... if members of my alliance did "these things," but "these things" is too vague to adequately answer. It's very fact-dependent. What I will say, though, is that I will not knowingly play with anyone currently in Chiguanas.
why do you care so much if they lie and manipulate others, if you were in a real war would you do that? Of Course, so why not do that here
 
so why not do that here
He's a hypocrite and would do it here if he could.

If anyone wanted to defect to join him, then he would behave in the same manner and use the same tactics.

The only reason why that hasn't happened is because nobody wants to play with him.

Hence why he comes on here, throws his little tantrums, tells more lies and makes himself out to be the most righteous player in Chi.
 
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Ace-Wolf

Guest
Who cares!! quite frankly all the back and forth talk is bordering obnoxious.
Mega, listen to McC for once I actually agree with him. All this back and forth talk is getting ridiculous, and we are all a little tired of reading your mumbo jumbo lol.
 

Gorben

Messenger
Player's Council
I love this Game .... the Apoc guys broke our pact first (check my separate thread). Once the CHIPmunks realized we were done as a separate power we looked at our choices .... Apoc .... CHIG...

Chig were honorable enemies that always treated us with respect. Apoc were lying allies that treated us like trash. They "supported" us sometimes .... but when they "truly" supported a city it would have 15k DLU and 3K BIR we never got that kind of support...

90% of our city losses were inactives .... we tried tripping them etc... but a siege on an inactive sucks to defend..... That's why only 8 of us went over ... that is all of the loyal active members that were left .... hates that Chigs use spies....

McContracting degrades CHIGS for using spies ... while at the same time admitting to having a spy working in the Albatross alliance .... Hypocrites suck ..... I'd rather lose with the CHIGS than win with APOC.....
 

jesmaec

Citizen
I don't usually comment on the externals, but occasionally I will make an exception.

The city I lost that was referred to was listed as a LTS city. Which 2 hours before the initial strikes started over half of the support was pulled from it. I told the Apoc council in the shared chat we had that I had an incoming CS. They did not respond. At all. It was clear that I was on my own in holding this city. Clearly that did not work out.

After we Joined Chig. I got a PM telling me I better get my Credit card out. While I'm not opposed to using gold I believe in donating $20 for every $100 I spend on gold to charity. I made that suggestion and I assume it was not appreciated. I don't plan on winning this game through credit card power. I have expenses and enjoy top shelf vodka.

And to clear up any confusion, I am a woman.

It's not make-up, It's war paint!

Good luck to all
 
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I love this Game .... the Apoc guys broke our pact first (check my separate thread). Once the CHIPmunks realized we were done as a separate power we looked at our choices .... Apoc .... CHIG...

Chig were honorable enemies that always treated us with respect. Apoc were lying allies that treated us like trash. They "supported" us sometimes .... but when they "truly" supported a city it would have 15k DLU and 3K BIR we never got that kind of support...

90% of our city losses were inactives .... we tried tripping them etc... but a siege on an inactive sucks to defend..... That's why only 8 of us went over ... that is all of the loyal active members that were left .... hates that Chigs use spies....

McContracting degrades CHIGS for using spies ... while at the same time admitting to having a spy working in the Albatross alliance .... Hypocrites suck ..... I'd rather lose with the CHIGS than win with APOC.....
So you admit that you connived, schemed, and betrayed? Thank you.

And the fact that you would call chiggers honorable enemies with their track record just goes to show how delusional you are.

I don't usually comment on the externals, but occasionally I will make an exception.

The city I lost that was referred to was listed as a LTS city. Which 2 hours before the initial strikes started over half of the support was pulled from it. I told the Apoc council in the shared chat we had that I had an incoming CS. They did not respond. At all. It was clear that I was on my own in holding this city. Clearly that did not work out.

After we Joined Chig. I got a PM telling me I better get my Credit card out. While I'm not opposed to using gold I believe in donating $20 for every $100 I spend on gold to charity. I made that suggestion and I assume it was not appreciated. I don't plan on winning this game through credit card power. I have expenses and enjoy top shelf vodka.

And to clear up any confusion, I am a woman.

It's not make-up, It's war paint!

Good luck to all
Jes, thanks for the response and good luck. Obviously, hadn't heard your side of the story. I'll admit that there's more going on than I know about, since I'm not on APOC council.

It's also refreshing that your reply DIDN'T contain any hyper-defensive fictions, rhetoric, spin, rationalizations, or absurd justifications for your treachery. Your new alliance mates should take a page from your book.

MEGA u cannot talk about my friends that way what ocean you in i think i wanna pay you a visit maybe bring a CS or 2 with me
Well, I'd wager that since you can't figure out what ocean I am in, then you'll have to forgive me for having a good laugh at this "threat."

mega - is this your first world? This is a part of the game. I have been playing for years and players switch alliances all the time, it happens. Some of my best allies and friends i have found on this game were once an enemy. You cant honestly say that with all the members you have that you have never taken in player from an enemy alliance. yes, maybe it could be viewed as deceitful to have them attack right before/after they flipped, but its the smartest move. should they of told you and allowed you to attack first? how long after a flip is it ok to attack? Please inform me of what Apocs etiquette is when recruiting an enemy for membership, do you make them wait a time frame before getting involved? and i know you guys have spies in other alliances, i could argue thats immoral but its a part of the game and frankly i have seen much much worst. Besides, you shouldnt be upset, the new chigs will just be more cities for you guys to take after our inevitable collapse
Jham, while I despise the way you run your alliance, you come across as reasonable and respectful on the forums and I give you props for that.

And you're obviously smart -- you have hit nail on the head. What's the "right" amount of time to wait to attack after a player flips? For how long can an alliance work with the enemy its about to join against its unknowing ally before it becomes "wrong?"

I can't answer that. Like the U.S. Supreme Court said about pornography -- you know it when you see it.

Players switch allegiances. Spies and sabotage exist. These things, in and of themselvse, are not the things I am railing against. It's because there are always degrees with reprehensible actions, most of which can be redeemed.

But there has to be SOME sportsmanship. There has to be SOME principle. There has to be SOME humanity. It's what separates us from the animals, the cannibals, the soulless evil-doers. I get flak for my high-minded opinion on a computer game message board, sure. I'll take the heat for that. But I'm right, and I'm not shy to declare -- victory is meaningless and unsatisfying without principle.

You seem to run your alliance in a truly Machiavellian manner. Is it effective? No doubt. But you seem to have absolutely no principles, and there's no baseness you will not stoop to. It's win at all costs. To each his own, of course, but your alliance mates shouldn't cry about being judged for it.
 
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jham4u

Messenger
FYI mega, the bolded line you speak of was sent to her from MC, not someone from chigs telling her to get prepared to spend money. Using gold is not an underhanded tactic though, gold users are the reason the game still exists. if no one bought gold than there would be no game
 
FYI mega, the bolded line you speak of was sent to her from MC, not someone from chigs telling her to get prepared to spend money. Using gold is not an underhanded tactic though, gold users are the reason the game still exists. if no one bought gold than there would be no game
If that was indeed the context of the statement, than my mistake. Edited.

And for the record, I agree that spending gold is not an underhanded tactic at all. Of course, I use gold myself. (Although I do think the advantages it provides can be too great in certain situations, but that's a topic for another day.)
 
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Slayer94

Taxiarch
I love this Game .... the Apoc guys broke our pact first (check my separate thread). Once the CHIPmunks realized we were done as a separate power we looked at our choices .... Apoc .... CHIG...

Chig were honorable enemies that always treated us with respect. Apoc were lying allies that treated us like trash. They "supported" us sometimes .... but when they "truly" supported a city it would have 15k DLU and 3K BIR we never got that kind of support...

90% of our city losses were inactives .... we tried tripping them etc... but a siege on an inactive sucks to defend..... That's why only 8 of us went over ... that is all of the loyal active members that were left .... hates that Chigs use spies....

McContracting degrades CHIGS for using spies ... while at the same time admitting to having a spy working in the Albatross alliance .... Hypocrites suck ..... I'd rather lose with the CHIGS than win with APOC.....
agreed chigs were probably the most well liked enemies i have ever had we got any nicer with each other we would have been pacted. as far as AN goes they just plain failed they used us as a barrier so they could build defenses and make a solid core and hope we could hold them off i don't know why but chig never took any of my cities(until the very last day of AC) but my alliance mates were losing cities left and right in o45 and it killed me i couldn't help them because my main power was in 55 so when i finally got a big city i thought i would be able to help. then the rest is history AC joined CHIG and APOC blamed us for not standing by them. well who would?
 

boilerbengal

Guest
i love the lies contained here. it totally solidifies our position. jess , you bragged about using your credit card honey. so yea you better get that thing out. gorben you talk of broken pacts. BS. your a liar. your all out of touch with reality. good thing olny one thing really matters in this game. skill!! your dishonest dealings will be your downfall.

for one thing you guys as a shield , a fence !! of course thats true. thats why we lent you guys long term support. its reality. a product of your unfortunate position between two alliances.

your self justifications are down right shameful. you will pay a heavy price that is a promise!
 

jesmaec

Citizen
i love the lies contained here. it totally solidifies our position. jess , you bragged about using your credit card honey. so yea you better get that thing out. gorben you talk of broken pacts. BS. your a liar. your all out of touch with reality. good thing olny one thing really matters in this game. skill!! your dishonest dealings will be your downfall.

for one thing you guys as a shield , a fence !! of course thats true. thats why we lent you guys long term support. its reality. a product of your unfortunate position between two alliances.

your self justifications are down right shameful. you will pay a heavy price that is a promise!
I never bragged about using my credit card. Goodness. I said that I was threatened with financial ruin and told that I needed to get my credit card out. Two completely different statements. I will find that post and paste it in here to refresh your memory. (Look up a few posts, what I actually said was this " I don't plan on winning this game through credit card power. I have expenses and enjoy top shelf vodka." NOT the same thing.)

What I said was I like top shelf vodka, and that is where my priorities lie.

One more thing, don't call me "honey". We don't know each other in rl. And being dismissive or demeaning towards me will not help you win.

Good Luck!
 
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swss

Guest
Exactly, what are we discussing here??? It sounds like sour grapes to me! All players have the right to play any way they wish. If a player wishes to Card, it is, their right. I personally, play on the cheap. I may wish to make a "donation" from time to time only to break a log jam. I will never use it as a crutch. I believe it is necessary to get the fullest experience from play; win or lose.
We are players of all nationalities, beliefs, and age. It is imperative that we put aside these petty differences and let players play in a way they wish.