PSA for the Butchers

Shetai

Guest
A public service announcement for members of the Butchers:

The situation on Borys leaving is a bit more in depth than what has been told to most members. The previous evening they were removing posts by and about him. It wasn't about biding time for a war against TEE. Though the NAP is a large part of his disappointment there is a bit more. There were discussions about moving 12 of the best members of the alliance north to aide The Reckoning with their war against Sinful Sloths. They would take over SS cities and reestablish themselves there. There were also discussions about merging those players with The Reckoning, leaving The Butchers who remained behind in positions at the front lines with TEE without the support or guidance of their former leaders. Hence the sudden appearance of CS manuvers in the TB/TR shared tab and nothing said to the Alliance members themselves. Certain members of Leadership were growing frustrated with members of the alliance and either their inactivity or their inability to follow directions.

I was even contacted before being removed from the Butchers about where I stood on the situation, but was at work and removed anyway. When I explained how I felt about the situation, I was merely told it was a misunderstanding and was a figure of speech. Do to my relationship with Borys I would at times peek at the Leadership forums when setting his demands and such while he was at work and would see what was posted in their discussions. The decisions made were dishonorable, misleading, manipulative and hypocritical.

Borys had been with the The Butchers for an extremely long time and had actually remained with the alliance even when Kreoss left (frustrations with the founder not being active) and came back. I know now he is being labeled a traitor and that he abandoned the alliance and moves against him and I are being placed and acted upon currently, but he has had more loyalty to that alliance than others and felt the situation slightly hypocritical after condemning BoC leadership for leaving their own members behind.

Just a PSA for those of you who were not handpicked, a bit of a warning to the future of the Butchers and a bit more of an explination as to a situation that you were purposefully mislead.
 

Mely75

Guest
My post to the body was simply that due to a conflict of interest Borys left to pursue his own endeavors, not to be snide but there are two sides to each story, and while I'm not really a fan of sharing internal details of alliance functions on these boards I will do so to a degree to better clarify the rest of the story if you will....

First of all you are correct Borys did post his displeasure with the NAP with TEE, His position within the alliance was not one that influenced on the pact decisions of the alliance. Yes he served as a company 2nd tier leader. His role that he accepted by the way was to manage and guide members of the company that he participated. He had no influence in the pact decisions or overall direction of the alliance. If that bit of power was misleading thats my mistake for recommending him for the position..
Secondly the insults to the leadership regarding the alliance and their decisions was not in his best interest, at least not for a member that was as loyal as you have proclaimed here on the public boards..

As far as moving members North to assist TR, well theres no secret there either, its on the boards internally, TR knows we are assisting them, and SS knows as we are attacking them. As far as relocating an leaving the members, I'm not real sure I understand this accusation , Are these players that are supporting their brother alliance to just give away their home cities? Do they get deleted because we conquer in another ocean? Please explain to me how we are leaving our members to the the front lines against TEE?
The reasoning behind not moving the entire alliance to assist TR with SS is due to travel times, and the need to further stake our claim in 56. Its easier to cover two fronts if you tactically divide your resources.

You were removed from The Butchers simply for the reason you already stated, you watching his screen would be no different than sharing information with him. Sadly his cities will be conquered due to the fact the has already openly threatened TEE, and declared a one man war on them *Shrug*... This confuses me, if he was so dead set on not pacting with TEE, why would he basically offer his cities up to them? Loyalty is easy to swear to, but if your actions don't support it, its only a word...... The Butchers will be taking these cities.

Regarding the "sudden" maneuvers in the TB/TR thread, this has been explained in more than one location of the internal forums so that all members are aware of whats happening and why its happening.. You may have been removed from the alliance prior to these post being made.

Dishonorable, misleading, manipulative, and hypocritical.. There was nothing dishonorable in the leaders actions, Borys left the alliance on his own free will. Manipulative, I guess I can't see the forest for the trees here. Wheres the manipulation? Misleading, How so? I was pretty straight forward with Borys, In fact I gather he did not like what I said regarding the TEE pact because he left the alliance almost immediately afterwards... hypocritical, I assume you are referring to this idea that the butchers top 12 are going to merge into TR and leave the other 50 players behind... Well that would actually be a very stupid mistake, Regarding loyalty, I am still here and I will not turn my back on our members...

The fact that this ended up on the public forums, really should be self explanatory to your membership status, and when its all said and done, Borys left on his own accord... No attacks from The Butchers were performed on him until the one man war declaration he made on TEE. It would ridiculous for us to allow TEE to take those cities in our oceans... Every action has a reaction....
 

fyreshot1337

Guest
Logic > Emotional Tirade of Misinformation

Victory: Mely75
 
TB can't even realistically help TR.....They're two days away by CS. Wait why does TR even need help? Given the size difference TR shouldn't be having as much trouble as it has had to begin with. They're statistically stronger than SS and TB and should have no problem challenging those two alliances put together. Let alone one of them apart. This goes even further for TEE. Who should be able to challenge all the alliances at once given their extreme advantages sought out an NAP with TR/TB in order to fight us. An alliance in a dead ocean deprived of other player life. Yet they somehow needed to find help. Kind of sad when you look at it.

Interesting bit about TB I wish all of those players the best of luck.



Tips: Guys seriously you should both screenshot your stuff, in context too, so that we can see visual proof and prove your point. In other parts of Grepo many people do this to prove that they are right. You can use a hosting site to enlarge the image. Just in case either of you wanted to prove your side. :)

After Reading Both Sides:

Alright guys let me offer my .02 if you'll hear me out.

1. @Mely75 I have to ask. Why would you attack SS? Even with an alliance with TR it really makes no sense for you to jump in. We've sniped every CS you sent to even half active players I believe. If you were hoping that TR is helping you they haven't lifted a finger in either offense or defense to do so.

2. With all due respect I don't think between two close alliances that an NAP was needed with TEE. They over extended themselves to your core and you could easily divide up the fight TR on SS and TB on TEE. Why? Because there's no way their top 12 players are going to be able to stop you from rampaging down south for the same reasons you can't really effectively fight SS. Overall I can see where both sides are coming from and I think there is a misunderstanding between both players. Overall I would agree with Borys view of it. A TEE NAP was a little excessive for the situation.

3. I'm serious about my tips. You both make arguing cases and raise good points on paper. But please in the future remember to screen shot important stuff or potentially important stuff to make your case.

Hope nobody takes anything what I said personally just thought i'd put my thoughts out there. :)
 
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Borys

Guest
So you're attacking us because I attacked TEE? I didn't realize the NAP had turned into a puppet dictatorship. This makes no sense as the pact between you all states that if they conquer anyone in your part of the ocean than they would have to turn the city over to you. Simply put, if they did take a city they would be bound by the pact to surrender it immediately to either TB or TR. All the while you've been deleting posts talking about why I left and any that you didn't want the others talking about. You yourself stated that there were discussions about an eventual merge between TR and TB. It makes absolutely no sense to "open up a second front" on TEE. Every commander knows that splitting up their forces is the worst possible choice in a conflict. TR needed help with SS and they coincidentally had 12 spots open in their roster. Why did TB leadership request the company commanders recommend 12 of the most active members to move up to TR territory?

You war against The Bakers is simply one of spite. You don't have to take my cities so don't make excuses about TEE conquering me and winning cities in your territory. You've been telling everyone how I abandoned them and that I'm a traitor. In fact I left because I didn't want to be around when you 12 changed your flag and left the rest to their own devices. Moving to TR territory was a stupid idea and one that clearly wouldn't work. I left because I lost faith in our leaders.

Yes, hyppocritical. You talked trash about how BoC leadership bailed at the first sign of inevitable crushing defeat but you planned on bailing on your people at the height of their success. We were unstoppable. We never lost a city and took down the second largest alliance in a weekend. Then you said stop. Stop and prepare for war with TEE that was coming soon. We got that "coming soon" speech for about three weeks as you bade us to conguer every 2k city in 56 while you backdoor dealed with TR to move up and move out. After three weeks of preparing for "war" with TEE you up and declare that there would be no war but a two month NAP. How stupid is a two month NAP on such a fast server? How stupid is it to move your best players half a world away to fight someone elses war?

All that was just bad decision making but I was willing to go along with it until you mentioned on the Leadership tab that there were talks about eventually having to merge with TR and that it was inevitable so you wanted the best 12 already embedded with TR. That's when you lost me. You went from making bad decisions to selling out your people. That's what she meant by dishonorable. Manipulative because you did not share this eventual merge with anyone of the alliance while you ordered them to launch their ships on on 24-32 hour missions to support your CS attacks. Missleading because when you ordered your troops to attack me you told them I quit "in a fit of rage" instead of the reasoned logical and moral choice that I made and explained to you all before I left. You deleted countless forum posts of people discussing why I left including a heartfelt good bye I had written to my company brothers that didn't contain any sensitive information or personal ire.

You guys are going to lose. You're going to lose because you're playing at politics in a war game and you're totally unqualified for it. I'll be on Tau, opening on the 19th. Happy hunting
 

Borys

Guest
I left because I didn't want to be around when you bailed on everybody. You can explain what you want but I read what mely said. It's not a a figure of speech to say you've been talking about a merger. That's pretty straightforward. TB could have been something, coulda been a contender.
 
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Mely75

Guest
Smilodon no offense taken. I don't bother screen shooting, really because I don't enjoy the drama of these boards.. Kinda wish I had now on this one though, as the above post is pretty much BS...

Borys I guess time will tell.

You really should have taken the time to actually read the posts I put in the forums. What your posting in here is half truth at best, But like I said time will prove all of that. I have nothing to prove in here or anyone in here to prove anything too...

Best of luck to you..
 
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And why would we merge? Two alliances with a strong pact, is better than one alliance.
Not sure if this is directed at me so i'll assumed that it is just in case and to not blow you off. Anyways if you're interested then please read this.

That really depends on the situation Kreoss. For instance as I said prior. You really have no way of helping TR fight us. In fact by lobbing 39 hour CSes at us with no real clearing or support from TR or yourselves you're just feeding us and letting us solidify. The pact you have is strong only on paper.

In actuality you only need to look at my mocking of TR's conquest attempts to know that your ally isn't that strong in its current state. Those list two of many examples as to why TR isn't really that great. While i'm sure someone will soon be here to defend that remark and claim that they're still taking towns. I'll point out that any city they've taken was expected to be lost at this point due to logistics and them hanging in their core. This is common sense and my point is that they've taken too many attempts as it is to do it. Not that they cannot do it that would be really sad if they couldn't.

The next thing is as I said earlier logistics. Your pact can be strong. But only against teams you both can realistically target. TEE+ TR? That's a strong pact for fighting SS. TEE+TR &TB? That aids two of the three alliances. You're now putting in resources to conquer far targets without any help. Just basically hoping to luck out. Meanwhile your allies will take the towns not you. Now having tried to deal with both of these alliances I can tell you that TB is getting the raw end of the deal. You have really no where else to go as you are the furthest relevant alliance down south from what I can tell. So you're bottled up against TEE.

Before anyone goes and says that i'm wrong I want you to ponder this. Why would TEE even need pacts to beat us? Their proximity to us and size difference screams an advantage that should not be challenged. Now we all can probably agree that for our size we've proven to be a pretty competent group. However the point still stands. TEE doesn't need pacts to beat us unless they aren't as good as the hype made them to be or they're holding back. In this case i'm going to guess that its a bit of both. TEE doesn't want to multi-front. It also wants to stop the growth of one of its next targets while over extending another in a prolonged war while it finishes AH and RC positions itself.

This is why Borys is mad i'm assuming. Having talked to the guy myself he seems pretty sensible. Fact of the matter is if anyone wants to know who is coming up as the loser here? Its all of us. If SS wins SS loses, if TR wins TR also loses, If TB wins they lose. Fact of the matter is this has always been TEE's game plan and they have flawlessly implemented at mostly all of our own faults.

Smilodon no offense taken. I don't bother screen shooting, really because I don't enjoy the drama of these boards.. Kinda wish I had now on this one though, as the above post is pretty much BS...

Borys I guess time will tell.

You really should have taken the time to actually read the posts I put in the forums. What your posting in here is half truth at best, But like I said time will prove all of that. I have nothing to prove in here or anyone in here to prove anything too...

Best of luck to you..
I figured just a tip for future experiences. While the externals are tedious and a lot of drama truth is they are extremely important.
 
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sirwackeypantz

Messenger
In actuality you only need to look at my mocking of TR's conquest attempts to know that your ally isn't that strong in its current state. Those list two of many examples as to why TR isn't really that great. While i'm sure someone will soon be here to defend that remark and claim that they're still taking towns. I'll point out that any city they've taken was expected to be lost at this point due to logistics and them hanging in their core. This is common sense and my point is that they've taken too many attempts as it is to do it. Not that they cannot do it that would be really sad if they couldn't.
I would just like to reinforce this point that it took about 72 hours to remove my 6 cities from o66. In that time a total of 17 cs were sent. Statistically speaking 6/17 cs ratio is horrible. That is a 35% landing accuracy on a player that is an ocean away within the core ocean of the #2 alliance of this world. The icing on the cake is that these cs only landed because of the 2 players that I trained on how to conquer properly. Because of them, my defenses were able to be beaten. The attacks from original members of TR on the other hand did not stand a chance.

I understand this post will create backlash, but I have the reports that speak for themselves. If you would like to see them, send me an in game message and I will happily let you take a look.

Edit: One final fact I forgot to state. In the first 24 hours, TR roughly destroyed 100 land units, 100 birs, and 150 ls. In that time I had destroyed roughly 1000ls and 200-300 birs. I also have these reports to back this statement up if anyone request to see them.

I understand this post will create backlash, but I have the reports that speak for themselves. If you would like to see them, send me an in game message and I will happily let you take a look
 

Kreoss

Guest
It was not directed at you Smilodon. Sorry if I you thought it was.

I have told Borys countless times that we are not merging with TR. And as Mely said, in time everyone will know the truth.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding then. However please do consider my points and their merits.

I look forward to seeing that day you guys seem to be one of the more solid teams out there. However I think time is running out for you guys to pull the trigger given your current situation.
 

Kreoss

Guest
This is why Borys is mad i'm assuming. Having talked to the guy myself he seems pretty sensible. Fact of the matter is if anyone wants to know who is coming up as the loser here? Its all of us. If SS wins SS loses, if TR wins TR also loses, If TB wins they lose. Fact of the matter is this has always been TEE's game plan and they have flawlessly implemented at mostly all of our own faults.

I figured just a tip for future experiences. While the externals are tedious and a lot of drama truth is they are extremely important.

Yeah, I agree that Borys is usually sensible, that is why this is confusing me so much. I'm not talking about the tactics here, all along this post, I have merely been amazed at how he reacted to a post he clearly did not understand.

As for this external forum, I agree with you too, this is my first world, I just started playing Grepo, so I have a lot to learn. Borys is actually the one who told me about reading these just yesterday. I wish I had known about them sooner.

But hey this is a learning experience, and I have learned a lot.

As for my harsh words towards Borys... He is basically calling me a lair by insisting that we are going to leave the rest of TB's when I told him countless times that we are not.

I obviously had a higher opinion of him than he has of me, and then he leaves the alliance. How am i supposed to see that any other way than betrayal?
 
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Yeah, I agree that Borys is usually sensible, that is why this is confusing me so much. I'm not talking about the tactics here, all along this post, I have merely been amazed at how he reacted to a post he clearly did not understand.

As for this external forum, I agree with you too, this is my first world, I just started playing Grepo, so I have a lot to learn. Borys is actually the one who told me about reading these just yesterday. I wish I had known about them sooner.

But hey this is a learning experience, and I have learned a lot.
If it makes you feel better i'm blunt and when I talk from experience and say that I am doing so most people see me as rude on the US servers. So I have had about 5 miscommunications with major alliances in the world. I would assume that Mort from PP also had similar encounters.

Every world is a learning experience for me. Part of the reason I came to the US servers instead of just immediately starting back up on a new world after Thebes was because I wanted to see the differences between US and EN players in their own environment. Please don't take this next bit as condescending but the actions I've seen would be laughed at or scolded for in En servers. I could ramble on for hours about it. Instead i'll sum it up with one example from this world.

Earlier in the game Howesmr approached me about staying out of each other's way. I believe he said that there was no need to fight and he didn't understand why we wanted to do so anyways. I didn't understand why he wouldn't want to fight a lesser alliance when he was only engaged in one war that was going rather well by then. Further more I didn't understand why he was being diplomatic to start with. The world cap is high and the experience is low still. Most of the experienced leaders actually got slaughtered by TEE, AH, or Enigma early on. With that I figured that there was nothing genuine about what he was saying or offering. I still don't to be honest. I admit he's good at what he does. TEE had the perfect game plan coming in and I respect that as a winning tactic. As a fun tactic though they pretty much killed this world before it started. Just one example that I think is a difference between the EN and US servers. Though over time I think that will eventually change.
 

Tyler101291

Guest
I probably have no "right" to post on this matter but since smilo and wackey thought they did then Ill join in I guess. TB ever since I joined TR has ALWAYS been really close allies to us and I have kept a pretty decent relationship with Kreoss ever since I was in Pheonixx. I never once saw any talk about a merger (although I do not hear everything). I am VERY aware at the frustrations that Borys was facing, because I felt the same way when we went to war with BoC. My CS ride was 24 +hours and I managed to land 3 CS across the border on the TEE line. IT can be done. Wackey you may be right, maybe it did take 72 hours. But the fact of the matter is this world is a lot of our first. Above all it doesnt matter what the smart choice WAS/IS. This is the hand we were all dealt, So play it or go cry in the corner.
 

Borys

Guest
Sorry for the misunderstanding then. However please do consider my points and their merits.

I look forward to seeing that day you guys seem to be one of the more solid teams out there. However I think time is running out for you guys to pull the trigger given your current situation.

A two month pact with the biggest threat alliance and now no one else in the area to conquer. /facepalm
 
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Kreoss

Guest
I probably have no "right" to post on this matter but since smilo and wackey thought they did then Ill join in I guess. TB ever since I joined TR has ALWAYS been really close allies to us and I have kept a pretty decent relationship with Kreoss ever since I was in Pheonixx. I never once saw any talk about a merger (although I do not hear everything). I am VERY aware at the frustrations that Borys was facing, because I felt the same way when we went to war with BoC. My CS ride was 24 +hours and I managed to land 3 CS across the border on the TEE line. IT can be done. Wackey you may be right, maybe it did take 72 hours. But the fact of the matter is this world is a lot of our first. Above all it doesnt matter what the smart choice WAS/IS. This is the hand we were all dealt, So play it or go cry in the corner.
Exactly.

And in my opinion indecision is worse than a bad decision. The ability do adapt to situations and overcome the obstacles is fun too.
 
I probably have no "right" to post on this matter but since smilo and wackey thought they did then Ill join in I guess. TB ever since I joined TR has ALWAYS been really close allies to us and I have kept a pretty decent relationship with Kreoss ever since I was in Pheonixx. I never once saw any talk about a merger (although I do not hear everything). I am VERY aware at the frustrations that Borys was facing, because I felt the same way when we went to war with BoC. My CS ride was 24 +hours and I managed to land 3 CS across the border on the TEE line. IT can be done. Wackey you may be right, maybe it did take 72 hours. But the fact of the matter is this world is a lot of our first. Above all it doesnt matter what the smart choice WAS/IS. This is the hand we were all dealt, So play it or go cry in the corner.
Tyler you guys had the power and had the ability to control your fate. SS waking up to random attacks? Dealt that hand. TEE over throwing most of the core? Hand dealt to everyone in the south. Fighting BoC? Totally avoidable and your leaders dealt the hand not the other way around. Treating every SS leader in a rude fashion and making them dislike their own ally? Probably could have avoided that.

As for posting I hate all of this "right" stuff. Its a public forum and its posted for all of us never be afraid to post your opinion. I wouldn't post PnP's from time to time if I didn't want input even from my enemies some of which have +repped me for ones about TEE or TR despite being on those teams. Worst case someone comes along and proves their point and you take a few notes. :)

@Borys I don't see why two fronting is bad honestly I got up to 5 before and still was doing well. Of course I had a different strategy and plan than I have now so obviously its different but still I enjoy multifronting. Heck even now i'm having fun personally so are a lot of the more hardcore players in SS. Its rare to get good action.

@Kreoss I don't agree. You don't let an enemy conquer your town because you couldn't decide how to use it anyways. That's kind of how I view the past few weeks. Overcoming obstacles is great. Sadly you're throwing the fight to TEE though for every day you waste fighting someone that won't probably strengthen your position. (TR) Or helping them fight someone that you realistically can't successfully fight. and can only send decoys at rather than fighting off an enemy encroaching your territory. (TB)
 
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Morighan

Guest
Why on earth would anyone take your "advice" when your own alliance is dying through lost cities, bad diplomacy, and player's jumping right and left? You have more balls than a bowling alley to presume to get on here and lecture other people. Particularly when, as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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Tyler101291

Guest
Dont get me wrong, no disrespect I just want a fight. Im waiting for the return punches.
 
Why on earth would anyone take your "advice" when your own alliance is dying through lost cities, bad diplomacy, and player's jumping right and left? You have more balls than a bowling alley to presume to get on here and lecture other people. Particularly when, as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.
You must be really arrogant huh? I've already explained the losses congrats on that whooping 35% conquest ratio i'm sure it'll take you far against teams in live oceans. Bad diplomacy? Is this coming from the person who condescended me multiple times when I warned her about how BoC would run to TEE and not you? Or how about the person who put an implied threat in a message and then cried more than Cam Newton because we took it to heart? Wait wait wait. How about the time you broke 2 NAPs and a verbal promise to not fight SS as long as TEE exists. If anyone here has proven that they have no idea what they're talking about its you hun. I think you know i'm right because now you're just randomly rage attacking people lol. That or you're a full blown MRA who pacted everyone and their mother and is starving for BP because of it. Personally I think its both. :)

But what do I know? I'm pretty sure the MRA queen has a lot more knowledge of the game than I do. What with her 20 second timing gaps and over confidence about every situation. :D


Dont get me wrong, no disrespect I just want a fight. Im waiting for the return punches.
Yeah you guys didn't handle our little jab very well.