Rank the Top Alliances

DeletedUser6798

Guest
I hate that we highjacked Athan's thread, because it was an interesting concept.

So to help keep it on focus, I'll start this thread which is at the center of most debates.

I ask that everyone give their opinion of the top alliances heading into wonders. You can consider their performance in wonders as a part of your evaluation, but keep the groups separate. In my opinion the top groups include: KOD/OB, KT, TBA/TBD/APOC, JG, Rat, and IA. Those are the 6 groups that competed for wonders. Heres my ranking of them and a brief analysis why. No need to show my entire hand just yet.

1. KOD/OB
- There are 2 factors in why KOD/OB takes my top spot. The first is that while they did rotate, they completed 3 wonders whereas every other group only completed one. The other reason is their resiliency. This group was down and out early, but played a solid world overall. The fact that KT decided to turn on TBD helped them out greatly, but they were already holding their own.

2. KT
- Maybe theres some bias here.. maybe. KT was 1 of the only groups not to rotate and they still completed a wonder. Additionally, once they turned on TBD they completed flipped the world upside down. The numbers speak for themselves, and the war between the 2 was completely lopsided. KT caused the fall of the top alliance and their 2 other top 5 allies. The only knock against them was that they used the safety of the rim and were never really test. But thats not entirely their fault.

3. TBA/TBD/Apoc
- The main reason I rank this group 3rd is because they sold out. They merged and rotated the most for wonders as 3 full alliances. Yet they only completed 1. Thats as many and Koopas and Rational. Additionally, they lost the biggest war of the server. Thats not blaming the group still in the world today. That mostly falls on the all those that abandoned the world when things got tough. Remember this is an evaluation of an alliance as a whole. Not individual players. There are some great ones in TBA, but the fact that so many up and left leaves this group greatly underachieving.

4. IA
- IA completed a wonder. Though it took them rotating 3 alliances to do it. Once made up of DV and IF, by themselves they would have failed. So kudos for being able to use the diplo to come together and compete in this world. The group took a beating all world, but other alliances were unable to finish them off. While no impressive fighters, this group gets points for resiliency.

5a. Rational
- I have the last 2 groups in a tie for 5th. While both have played sidekicks for most of the server, Rational was at least in a war with a top group at the time in LOD. Their stats arent great but unlike JG they were able to complete a wonder. Thats why if anything they do hold a slight edge. Also unlike JG they took the brunt of the attacks from a top alliance. TBA for some reason or another refused to hit KT or KOD. They were more focused on cleaning out 55. That meant Rational would get hit the hardest. Despite that, they competed in the end for wonders

5b. JG
-I stand by my comments about JG being the joke of the server. Bayou, Jaymus, and Leaf will get on here and tell you what great fighters they are, and they dont play the diplo game... all that jazz. The truth remains that this group never when head on with any top fighting alliance. They picked at IA and their internals. And when TBA ran an OP they would attack at the same time. Their war with KOD/OB is about even.. but the numbers are lack luster, showing that neither group really was in an all out war with each other. So despite the solid stats and great core group of players, what has this group accomplished? Their biggest penalty is for not completing a wonder. As I've said before, they played a solid world, but they were far from a top group.
 
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DeletedUser2630

Guest
History is written by the victors through rose coloured spectacles......and lawyers always seem to find a way on to the winning side at the end.
 

DeletedUser9287

Guest
i mostly agree as to what is written all though i think TBA may edge out KT for that 2nd spot by just a bit but a solid write oli
 

DeletedUser6798

Guest
History is written by the victors through rose coloured spectacles......and lawyers always seem to find a way on to the winning side at the end.

This isnt writing a history..This is rating your performance..

Truth: JG was only top 6 alliance not to build a wonder.
Truth: JG was allied with an alliance larger than themselves the entire server
Truth: Despite that alliance JG was left out of the TBD/APOC merge

Bayou, you are a great player so dont take this as a knock on you.. but really.. JG didnt do anything of great importance on their own all server. So when it comes to grading how JG did this world, they take a hit in that regard.

Also.. please dont make any remarks about my personal life. I'm sorry you feel that my higher education and professional career put you at a disadvantage when talking/dealing with me. I truly dont care what you think/have to say about what I do with my life outside of game. But thats exactly what it is.. something not related to this game. By continually bringing it up as an attempt to degrade my position reflects poorly on your own personal morality and quite simply proves that you have nothing of importance to offer to this conversation.

i mostly agree as to what is written all though i think TBA may edge out KT for that 2nd spot by just a bit but a solid write oli

I almost put them in that 2nd spot as well. Its close, and maybe my bias showed through a little bit.. But when made my decision was the fact that KT and TBA built the same amount of wonders despite TBA's huge rotating advantage. Additionally the war between TBD and KT was quite lopsided and caused many of their players to quit.

TBD accomplished a lot this world. But most of it was early on. That lead to a big target and their eventual downfall since they couldnt handle the pressure. APOC on its own would rank below JG in terms of accomplishments.. so TBD merging with them didnt exactly improve their position in my eyes
 
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DeletedUser6798

Guest
you all are boring. Huess everyone just argees with me
smiley_emoticons_biggrin.gif
 

DeletedUser12518

Guest
Wow! That was a quite an essay or should I say long winded Olie.

I would have to say that JG has been the most formidable players we as a team of mostly experienced players have ever went up against early on in a world. If it would not been for them, I for one one would have been a much higher rating in BP in this world, as well as many more IA members. JG are not to be underestimated in anything they do. They could have joined up with TBD in the builds but chose not to. And how much they was able to set us/me back early on is testament how well and good of players these guys are, as we are not novice players as some may think. They will always have my respect.

AD
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Wow! That was a quite an essay or should I say long winded Olie.

I would have to say that JG has been the most formidable players we as a team of mostly experienced players have ever went up against early on in a world. If it would not been for them, I for one one would have been a much higher rating in BP in this world, as well as many more IA members. JG are not to be underestimated in anything they do. They could have joined up with TBD in the builds but chose not to. And how much they was able to set us/me back early on is testament how well and good of players these guys are, as we are not novice players as some may think. They will always have my respect.

AD

Not to diss JG - but I think bp is so much easier as a defender (as long as you are the one getting hit - not neccessarily supporting).
I was in the top 6 fighter ranking early on in this world as my first city happened to share the island with most of Argentum :-D

Even ranking alliances will be skewed by what we know and think but I could agree with many points in here. JG didn't bail on TBD but I don't know how much support they were sending. I don't know why TBD chose Apoc for Wonders when there was potentially a good spot to share if that is what they wanted, or maybe JG didn't want to merge for Wonders???

If I remember right was APOC previously LOD?

To me an alliance is best judged when they are on their own - maybe we will see a bit more of that later.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
Not to diss JG - but I think bp is so much easier as a defender (as long as you are the one getting hit - not neccessarily supporting).
I was in the top 6 fighter ranking early on in this world as my first city happened to share the island with most of Argentum :-D

Even ranking alliances will be skewed by what we know and think but I could agree with many points in here. JG didn't bail on TBD but I don't know how much support they were sending. I don't know why TBD chose Apoc for Wonders when there was potentially a good spot to share if that is what they wanted, or maybe JG didn't want to merge for Wonders???

If I remember right was APOC previously LOD?

To me an alliance is best judged when they are on their own - maybe we will see a bit more of that later.

you suspected right. JG decided to go it alone and either win as a team or else have a lot fun fighting. We are not into the shared crown concept. Be good to have a server setting that includes ability to share crowns and not.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
Wow! That was a quite an essay or should I say long winded Olie.

I would have to say that JG has been the most formidable players we as a team of mostly experienced players have ever went up against early on in a world. If it would not been for them, I for one one would have been a much higher rating in BP in this world, as well as many more IA members. JG are not to be underestimated in anything they do. They could have joined up with TBD in the builds but chose not to. And how much they was able to set us/me back early on is testament how well and good of players these guys are, as we are not novice players as some may think. They will always have my respect.

AD

what kind words. The Forum perceptions are skewed by those who post here - not intentionally but simply by virtue of topics and players. I think I had one experience with KT on this server. For those fighting elsewhere we did so almost in anonymity, maybe somewhat like the war in Burma compared to the more talked about battle zones.

The respect is mutual AD. Hope to see you guys in a future world.
 

DeletedUser6798

Guest
To Bayou and AD (dont want to quote both responses)

I do agree with the points you shared. But this is a ranking of the alliances as a whole and what they have accomplished this server. There already is a thread to discuss players on an individual level.

I think Baris was a very competitive sever in that many top alliances all have top notch players. Im not saying there are no players in JG that are better than players in Koopas. Thats false. But top to bottom. Base on performance and accomplishments, this is how I rank the alliances.

I have given JG credit for going at wonders alone. They and Koopas were the only ones that didnt rotate. They get points for that in my book. But they were also the only alliance not to complete a wonder. Points deducted. Also Achilles I understand that JG tested you guys early in the server. But they never finished you off. Alliances like Argentum and LoD were world winners as well and despite their MRA tendencies in Baris, they had some quality players. TBD, Koopas, KOD, and Rational were all a part of the downfall of those alliances. Thats why in this list of remaining 6 JG ranks last. As a whole. Also.. if you think my posts in here are long.. you should see some of my Mass Mails 8)

I would be interested to see others people's ranking and reasoning since they may not necessarily agree with mine.
 
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DeletedUser12518

Guest
First off I would like to say, I respect many players on this server. This server has proven to hold more quality teams and players all together than most all past servers. Hats off to you all. You have my respect.

And just FYI Olie, there is a good reason JG did not finish us off... It was not because they did not try, it was the resilience and quality defenders of our team, and decision of leadership on IA's (IF/DA) part. The problem Argen and LOD had is they had multiple alliances from all sides hitting them with their location. KoD, TBD, and a couple others, including us hitting them from all sides finished them. We made a move so we did not have other hostiles at our backs and took these oceans and built back up. With our experienced defenders, JG could not break our defenses once they moved our way. Frankly I believe no one on this server in JG's position could have done this. I have been attacked by KoD, TBD, JG, And several others and I can say TBD and JG was the best attackers, that is when TBD had CJ still with them.

So, Its not that JG did not finish us off, its that they could not finish us off and neither could you, KoD, TBD, or any other alliance alone on this server in their same position in relation to us. We simply out defended the attacks once we strategically moved our location and was able to rebuild before they got close enough to make any difference.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'll do this in stages - as I get fed up with refreshing :p

1) KoD - Sorry but I do think they are number one on rankings, not simply because they won but because they had the odds stacked against them and didn't give in.
In the course of a world there still needs a bit of luck but you have to still be there to benefit from it - the tide turned with Argentum (roughly 5-1 odds at the start) when KoD had safe cities in 53, it would have been a long war with good players on both sides until TBD joined in (whether that was purely based on Arg defending against TBD (which I believe true) or because they didn't want an alliance like KoD to expand south has been debated, but it sped things up considerably.
KoD have a number of good players who have played with each other for a long time and added some further excellent players here over the course of the world.
However - had Koopas decided to attack KoD the odds would have been ridiculous - KoD would have survived by going further north but would not have been the size (currently second) that you see today.
Special mention to OB who I consider part of us - they would have had a far easier time siding with JG but had the character not to.

2) TBD - No alliance has crushed others quite like they did. Large numbers of A-Grade players who have fought with and against each other previously. Held 55 which is the ocean I could barely handle when fully active, no life at all (and we won through DBP - LOL).
Let down by stupid mass mails (not just Poseidon's Trident - lol), stating Zimm had fled when there was a death in his family provided a number of players with a reason to fight AND the fair-weather players who ran as soon as they realised they may need to defend.
Losing Chris John was a massive loss and I hope he is well as he doesn't seem to be on skype.
However other key players are still fighting and thriving and I still consider them great guys who I would fight again with in the future.
Would probably have walked it - if Koopas stuck with them - but people would only have remembered the top 3 being pacted and a shambles of a world, rather than the initial period where they destroyed MoM, laid waste to Arg and blasted through KoD defence that at that stage of the world shouldn't have been possible.
You will see their players at the top of the tree many times in the future.

3) Koopa Troopas - fast growing, active and offensively dominant in all their exchanges in this world. When they started (late) someone posted that mike would be at the top and i was dubious due to the lead others had, but he got there.
As we haven't fought against them I cannot judge them, only by intel and that would indicate top notch.
Much discussion has been had around their decision to leave the big coalition, however I would hazard a guess that their moves quite rightly were not made solely by their leaders and they listened to players who play to fight rather than sim. If you have led an alliance you know you cannot ignore your players without consequences.
My own view is irrelevant, they freshened up what could have been (and I expected it to be) a very boring world and nobody has ever had the upper hand against them.

4) JG - yes they had it easy and haven't done anything on their own - but what they have done is solid. Dominate 45/44 which no other alliance has had a real interest in, but you can only really judge an alliance when you have fought them and they have very good players. Able to support from a safe ocean and then attack elsewhere and do not give in.
If you had a perfect pact description it would probably be them as they are solid, self reliant and by all accounts trustworthy.

5) Rational - I don't know a lot about them, but they built a wonder (it appears they discussed which one to go for with KT) AND when the big fight started they were targeted by TBD and held. The figures of BP that OP were astounding and I wouldn't be surprised if TBD lost all their offence in that move (which we know was a lot). That one op weakened TBD and in my opinion was key to the tables turning, the fact it was Rational that withstood it says a lot about their planning and resilience - the impact of that is why I have ranked them so highly.

6) IA 1, 2, 3 - Whilst claiming experience I do not see depth in there (how can you in those numbers), what I see is a group who are active and continually developing. I don't doubt they have players fairly new to the game who will have learnt a lot from those more experienced and through the experiences of this world.
VERY defensive minded which combined with generally high activity means they are not going to be removed easily.
IF they can stck together AND get on the rim again I can see them having a real shot at World Wonders in future worlds, you can see how they were set up for them here - if they start off a world with that plan then they would be dug in so deep they would be tough to fight against.
Inexperience has shown in some attacks and in losing their wonder BUT should take a lot of heart from this world where for a long time they were a punching bag - but they are finishing it near the top.
Good move pacting with JG as the Wonders started as they were the closest threat to 35.
Very close to number 5 position, but I admit I may be letting my personal annoyance in seeing a leader posting KoD attacked them whilst a NAP was in place as they expected - when they had been attacking for 36 hours telling us it was over.
1 - IF you want to end a NAP then advise the other alliance
2 - Don't then post the other alliance broke it "as expected"
Sorry but that is my explanation to why my judgement is clouded, but I hope my account is actually positive.

7) TBA - newly founded in what appeared a last ditch move for wonders. Could have targeted 4 rather than 7 and been more sucessful + were hampered by the bank holiday although others had read up and planned for it. Have good players but I am judging on them since they were created, not the players who have achieved a lot just with difference alliances.

8 ) Apoc - I know nothing about them, took what was an easier option at the time and now live with it.
 
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DeletedUser6798

Guest
Achilles,

I agree with a lot of what you said. I do think you guys had a strong will and did not collapse. But lets remember the history of the 3 separate groups that make up IA. Dynasy Veterans, Imaginary Friends, and Deadly Authority never accomplished much individually this world. Then you all came together and built a wonder. Thats about where it starts, and where it ends. Separately you likely would have fallen, so it is commendable that you came together and competed.

Secondly, being on the rim certainly helped keep you alive. It is the same strategy Koopas used. However, while this entire server Koopas have been pushing into the core alliance, the alliances that make up IA never did so. Sure you has a successful OP or two, but You controlled O44 from early in the server and due to a pact with KOD, and then you pushed away from the big fights. You and JG basically traded blows.

Finally I do not agree that any other alliance in JGs position would not be able to finish you off. JG had the best set up of any alliance in this game. Thy were allied with the top alliance, and only had one front line. The one they shared with you. Just look at the ABP for the 3 IA groups. you rank 7, 9, and 11 respectively. It is safe to say that you were not putting much offensive pressure on JG. So they should have been able to focus much more on you. But look at IA's DBP. Those numbers are equally non-impressive (dont worry, Koopas DBP is awful as well). But 3 different single alliances have more DBP than the 3 groups of IA combined. So in reality I think JG did the least of any top alliance with one of the best situations. If TBD and JG swap oceans, I dont think IA even has a chance to form. You may be right that once IA came together you may not have been able to be taken out completely, but thats JG's fault. when I say they couldnt finish you guys off, I am taking about the entire server. TBD, Koopas, and KOD made players quit with how bad they beat them. While you get respect in my book for resiliency, JG looks slightly inept because of it.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I thought it was just down to JG not taking risks (that they might overstretch) so as soon as IA werent in 44 (or 45) they were basically safe from JG.
 

DeletedUser6798

Guest
I guess it is just up to interpretation. Whether its not taking risks or not closing the deal it was their direct ineptitude that lead to IA recouping and flourishing.

Also LF I cant disagree with much on your rankings. You separated TBD, TBA, and APOC. And Yea I can see putting TBD above Koopas, but what it comes down to is that all 3 alliances merged into one group. Just like IA. If you consider that in your rankings it may bring them down overall, which is reflected in my rank of them.

I guess I will just forever be harsh on JG.. no other group has bragged so much and done so little. Dont get me wrong, that could have been said about Koopas the first half of the world, but that changed. I guess I just feel JG could have/should have accomplished more given their situation.
 

DeletedUser2630

Guest
I guess it is just up to interpretation. Whether its not taking risks or not closing the deal it was their direct ineptitude that lead to IA recouping and flourishing.

Also LF I cant disagree with much on your rankings. You separated TBD, TBA, and APOC. And Yea I can see putting TBD above Koopas, but what it comes down to is that all 3 alliances merged into one group. Just like IA. If you consider that in your rankings it may bring them down overall, which is reflected in my rank of them.

I guess I will just forever be harsh on JG.. no other group has bragged so much and done so little. Dont get me wrong, that could have been said about Koopas the first half of the world, but that changed. I guess I just feel JG could have/should have accomplished more given their situation.

The difference of interpretation comes down to what you value in the game and why you play.
JG like to fight and that's what we do. We have a healthy number of players towards the top of the ABP rankings and we have good defenders too. So if it's fighting you value then you would say JG is a top alliance.

If instead you value winning a crown (JG is not giving up on a crown), or playing diplomacy, then JG would be bottom of the heap. And you Ollie, would be number one all by yourself. You are more dangerous than a whole alliance!
 

DeletedUser6798

Guest
The difference of interpretation comes down to what you value in the game and why you play.
JG like to fight and that's what we do. We have a healthy number of players towards the top of the ABP rankings and we have good defenders too. So if it's fighting you value then you would say JG is a top alliance.

If instead you value winning a crown (JG is not giving up on a crown), or playing diplomacy, then JG would be bottom of the heap. And you Ollie, would be number one all by yourself. You are more dangerous than a whole alliance!

All this talk about JG being these self acclaimed fighters.

You didnt read a word I said did you Bayou..

I ranked JG at the bottom because of your inept fighting abilities. You currently have 16 top 100 attackers. Thats 16%. Easy math lol. Which is just about 1/6th... so no.. you dont have a "healthy" amount of attackers. Actually you have exactly the average amount.

Koopas have 23 attackers in the top 100
KOD also has 23 of the top 100 attackers
TBA/TBD/APOC has 22 of the top 100 attackers

so WOW look at that.. JG even fails at their own claim to fame.

Bayou I've said it many time. You are a great player. But your alliance from top to bottom is weak and in Baris they are a disappointment.

I dont play this game to win a crown. Thats old news. If I wanted to do that I would have kept the pact with TBD. I would rather have a challenge. You should know better than to test my claims. You provide no facts. Only an opinion that JG is some war crazed group. And The facts show they arent. Again.. all show, no go.

Oh and if you want to talk about defenders.. it gets even worse.
JG has 11 top 100 defenders.. Koopas have 16. And I have been more than honest about how I think Koopas' defensive stats are bad. But somehow our top defenders still top JG.

Please try again.
 
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