Dragon Slayers

Whytheface

Guest
Pretty long read but if you are bored ..

"mflip234 has written the following:
Dear Dragon Slayers...

Jumping to havoc isnt the answer to going far on this server. Havoc is a pts only oriented alliance. They dont care if you are a good player, bad player, or an average player. They care that you add pts which are meaningless.

Jumping to them means, you will suffer a brutal defeat at the hands of many others shortly. To win at grep, it takes a team with loyalty, a team with a togetherness. Stand by Teacher317c. He actually has loyalty to you guys, isnt interested in just worrying about who has what points... Loyalty will be rewarded on this server, while running wont. I can promise you that Evis, Wolves and Asc will target jumpers every chance we get to show people that LOYALTY MEANS SOMETHING...

Stand and fight against havoc, dont just run away. Running to the enemy on Server Naxos means you get rimmed, while standing, showing honor and loyalty means that people will have your back and help you. Its time to show Grepolis what loyalty and honor are... Who is willing to stand with Teacher and Ascension in that cause...

THIS IS THE TIME TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. ITS A GAME ON A COMPUTER. DO YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO STAND AND FIGHT, OR ARE YOU THE NEXT INLINE TO JUMP WHEN THE GOING GETS A BIT TOUGH.

These awards were earned through fighting. The teams that won these were forged through battle. Had to fight for the win. IT MADE WINNING ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..."

First off I am not attempting to trash talk and I know people will make assumptions about Havoc and attack us regardless of anything I could possibly say but there are a few things of note that should be brought to consideration. Keep in mind I dont pretend to know everything surrounding these politics but this is what I have seen/know.

Havoc did kind of start out points centered but they paired this with activity. After a bit it became activity/goal based more than anything. For example the last 8 removed were either inactive or did not participate in any battles. One even tried to have us attack each other for points instead of war targets. I just cant fathom anyone playing this game even half seriously and still have one city and hardly any BP after nearly a month. (Obviously players constantly under attack have a reason).

As for the DS joining Havoc, here is a quick review from a grunts perspective. DS starts an academy without discussing this with us at all, Kirruu explains to Teacher why this is concerning and that our guy hitting a DS academy guy was doing so before we even knew of its existence. I am not sure what transpired after this, but within 24 hours DS drops pact and is hammering our guys near their cluster. We lose a few cities at first but eventually start putting up walls and thwart a major attack involving multiple DS and a lot of units from Sobieski. Now maybe RL hit, but Sobieski and davimor go inactive not too long after this. Havoc is starting to hit DS back and quite frankly I personally hit air far too often or small enough defense 1 wave gets through. It does not appear DS are coordinated anymore but I do not now or then know what was happening internally.

I also dont know why some DS came over or what may have been said with Teacher and I wont presume here. I can say that much of the leadership and main players seem to have abandoned their team for whatever reason and that doesnt scream loyalty and honor to me as neither does the issue with an academy. Allies have to be honest and trustworthy or like a marriage it will fail. I see no real difference between what happened with Havoc and DS as compared to Ascension and PP save that Teacher remains in DS.

While Im not even sure I should be saying anything, I strongly feel it is unfair how Havoc and more specifically Kirruu gets slagged with half truths. There are a lot of Havoc that put effort forward in every battle even in the face of an initial bad start to the DS war and Kirruu is probably one of the most approachable leaders I have ever gamed with. Willing to work with you even if you butt heads with him and instead of flying off the handle gets as much information as he can about a situation before making a measured response. We may not win a WW or even survive a year but I can say Havoc is far better off than a lot of you give it credit for and will not go down easily (I have several bottles of whiskey that I am prepared to drink non stop until I see nothing but victory if I have to!)

Anyway it has been a week since you started reading this I guess I should stop rambling. Good Luck and Good Hunting all, I think it will be more interesting than people think =)
 

Lomafri

Guest
As a player who initially started in leadership at havoc but got kicked out because I was in vacation mode for the past two weeks (I really still should be) I feel like I have a good say in this post. Honestly getting kicked from havoc is one of the best things that happened in this game for me.

This is correct and incorrect.

There were many things I was unhappy about in Havoc in the beginning of the game. I admit that I had looked into Dragon Slayers before I had looked at Havoc, but DS wouldn't take me because at the time I had no allies on the island. Havoc invited me after I was in contact with Kirruu for a few days. My original intention had been to stay with Havoc until I could find my way into DS grounds, I had known that Havoc was planning on pacting DS because Kirruu had made it public. A few other alliances had contacted me, and I looked at the forums and immediately left. I though havoc would be wonderfully set up, but it wasn't. There were four tabs: general discussion, news, offensive, defensive.

News included the "daily goal" (I'll get to this later) and the newsletter (a compilation of things that leadership has to say)

General discussion was literally everything and extremely unorganized.

Offensive and defensive had literally nothing in them. The alliance already had 40 some members and not even a template. For the first few weeks players didn't even put down who their attackers were, when attacks were landing, or any vital information. I was still on VM mode and I had to threaten players that I would take down their posts if they didn't provide us with the information we needed to know. The rest of the leaders didn't seem to care.

The forums are much cleaner now, but certainly not because of the leadership that started there.

As for the goal system. The goals started out point oriented, very much so. Daily goals are ran by leader Kahlah, who had less than 1 month of experience before being elected a leader and literally seemed to be doing every basic idea she learned from her previous alliance. Seems to have improved, but honestly I grew such a distaste for her at the beginning of the game that I just don't care. Players were told that they needed to be getting certain point totals or else be kicked. I watched players who had the top ABP in our alliance be kicked out because their points were low. Now it is centered on gaining cities. It was a big point in leadership that the idea behind the points was stupid because we were making cities for other players to take and players were spreading themselves out too thin. Myself and another leader suggested that it should be bp or points related (as in gain 200 of some mixture of BP and points in a day) this idea was quickly shut down.

Kirruu is sweet and a good convincer, but my first impression was lacking. When we started mentioning that we would do ops, he asked what an "OP" is. Speaking of OPS, the initial idea brought to havoc by our attack coordinator was that we would hold weekly ops every Friday at the same time. I had to be the one to question if that would be very successful considering the entire idea of an op is to keep it a secret, not make it "it's Friday havoc is about to attack us build up the biremes" it was only then that leaders were like "oh you're probably right let's do it anyways so if we ever change it the alliances will be confused"

As for the falling of havoc and DS, it shouldn't have happened in the first place. DS taking an academy was dumb, I'll be the first to admit it, I wasn't impressed. They also should have discussed with the leadership more, first. But things were still in discussion, and despite us saying we would talk about it before dropping the pact, (the leaders had discussed that we would let it slide but never again) some idiot attacked anyways so DS dropped the pact.
It was DS's stupid decision that ended up making dropping the pact a conversation and havoc's poor communication that ended up sealing the coffin.

Once again I was the one that had to make a diplomatic board to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

I'm not saying havoc is a bad team, they're really good. At least, the players are. But the leadership is some of the worst I've seen in a long time. I've watched noob MRA alliances do better. It's the players that carry the alliance, as well as the amount of cushioning they have. By the time I was kicked they had 9 naps and 1 alliance in discussion with. The only reason havoc isn't failing is because no one in the area is attacking them, the other alliances are feeding off of each other while havoc takes it's picks and is becoming a huge monster in 45/55. It's almost becoming unimpressive. There was only one alliance that I suggested we make contact with and it took like 5 weeks for them to be like "oh hey those guys are pretty good let's set up a nap"
Literally. I mentioned it like 10 times and was ignored every time.


I'll admit, they're much better off than they were. But because of how they started off I will always have a bad taste in my mouth.
Even with me telling them I would be in VM and homeless without computer access for 3 weeks or so, and them saying it was okay, I was still put up for internalization after the first week. Because I was apparently never a part of the alliance, I don't mind sharing my thoughts with you.

And my suggestion to those napped with havoc: reconsider. They're a great alliance, obviously, but Kirruu is doing something pretty obvious. Taking alliances one by one. And never share discussions with the entire alliance.
Kirruu has a "waiting list" for the alliance. Players who want to get in have to spy on their current alliance. The better the info, the better chance they have on getting in. Spies are a big part of the game, obviously, but with so much extra cushioning havoc already has, it was becoming a bit ridiculous.

All this having been said : havoc is really improving. You may not want to listen to my opinion because it was pretty biased and when someone does something stupid early on I will always think of them as stupid, no matter how much they've improved. But havoc is pretty clearly improving. And they've got a method of how they're doing it.....I just don't agree with it. The game is no fun when an alliance is free from everyone else's attacks so they can focus on one alliance at a time. But they're still doing it.

And no, this is not because I'm bitter about being kicked out. Personally I would have kicked myself out the second I said I'd be gone for 3 weeks at the start of the game.
 

Lomafri

Guest
Side note : Another thing that made me irate at the beginning was Kahlah constantly posting <800 ghosts to conquer that were in the middle of nowhere. I mentioned several times that unless the ghost was on an active island of ours, I wouldn't post it unless it was over 1000 points (personally I wouldn't go for less than like 1500 or higher, but I was trying to compromise.)
Yet still she always posted like 500 point ghosts that were 5 hours by transport boat away telling people to go after. She also set up an internalization board saying we should be internalizing players with less than like 1000 points. I'm exaggerating a bit but it was pretty clear that she was just copying what old leaders did late in the game and didn't have much experience with when to do things. Internalization is necessary, but not that early.
 

Whytheface

Guest
"Offensive and defensive had literally nothing in them. The alliance already had 40 some members and not even a template. For the first few weeks players didn't even put down who their attackers were, when attacks were landing, or any vital information. I was still on VM mode and I had to threaten players that I would take down their posts if they didn't provide us with the information we needed to know. The rest of the leaders didn't seem to care. "

I am not going to comment on what was discussed in leadership or who had what ideas. This above me however is pure nonsense. The server is barely a few weeks old (You have 10 solid days put in). Most players will not post in the offense tab unless help is required. Why do I need to clutter it with cities I am easily able to solo? As for defense you are right about that, several players would not follow the template and got little or no support due to no information given. I have actually seen Kahlah and --har-- both edit posts or tell the player to do it or the post will be deleted (There are templates and have been for weeks), but I missed you doing any of this for the ten days you did play(As for VM you have point gains every few days sporadically, that would suggest inactive not VM). To be fair I was not in Havoc for most of the first week however.

Havoc was not a heavy premade so of course like any new unit there will be learning how best to work together and bumps along the way. That said, Kirruu and Kahlah gave every opportunity for players falling behind to learn ways to play smarter long before any kicks. You know the saying you can lead a horse to water ... Hell even I have tried to help some players (Politely and constructively) who were making me face palm, but honestly some just dont want to change. I do agree the internalizing players threw me for a bit, but I reached out to some of the players DS rimmed to "power Level" them with res and city clearing and got zero response. I think far too many players, not just in Havoc, have the attitude that we are here for their gaming pleasure and refuse to put in the time and effort to learn .. they want others to do it for them. Point is after having tried to contact some of the rimmed or weaker players and getting no reply, it is hard to argue their being kicked.
 

Lomafri

Guest
I know there are templates there, because i'm the one who put them there. and I joined several days after the world opened, they should have already been placed there. The post was not a suggestion to the deficiencies of the alliance as a whole but to the incompetence that started as leadership. Given, most of that has now changed. I know one of my templates (defensive) was taken down and replaced with a "2.0" version of basically the exact same thing in different order. I don't particularly care, I'm glad people have started running things, but I'm still unhappy with how it was run in the first place. When we finally did start inputting things it just got cluttered. I know it looks better now, don't get me wrong.

As for editing and deleting posts, as stated above, I was the one who told them to do it. The first three days I wasn't in this alliance, and after that there weren't too many posts but when there were stupid things I would just delete them. At the beginning, people were asking for support because of players attacking them who still haven't told us who it was. I think it was poison or DIA, although I'm still not sure. But there were several players asking for (albiet, unneeded) support because they were being attacked by random players. When DS started their attacks it really still wasn't used, I know that they are used more or less properly now We released in the newspaper that we would start editing and deleting (I asked this 2 times, mind you, while on VM mode) and it didn't happen until the second time. Yes, as mentioned, it's much better now. I'm sure Kahlah and Har are doing things now, but to start with frankly it just sucked.

As for VM mode, it takes 2 days to activate. I attempted to come on as much as possible while waiting for deactivation.
The first time I took it off was because leadership was freaking out since DS broke the pact and I went on to see the forums and what was going on. The second time is when I was removed from leadership and wanted to see if I was removed from the alliance, as well.
It was then that I learned that I had been put up for internalization like 4 days prior.

"Point is after having tried to contact some of the rimmed or weaker players and getting no reply, it is hard to argue their being kicked" Yes, some players who were insufficient were kicked that I 100 percent agree with. I was being bludgeoned by Poison, I don't use gold, and I still made the point totals. barely. But that's because when I actually do have a house and computer, I'm on 24/7. But starting out pushing players to make big cities is not teaching players the right thing to do. A big problem that new players make is mistaking points over BP, and frankly unless you are rich in gold if you play that way you will be rimmed the first week off BP. It teaches players that having nice, pretty cities is the best thing to do, rather having solid strong cities. It was only after one of the other leaders mentioned said problem that Kahlah inputted the "contact me and we'll talk about it"

Again, havoc is clearly improving. As you can read in the above posts like 10 times. But concerning your first post and saying that "havoc and Kirruu getting slapped with half truths" I'm saying what I know to be truthful while the alliance was still in formation. You put a lot of "I don't knows" so my post is just what I know and feel to be true. Now they're doing BP checks, now they're (apparently) looking to dwindle down naps, now they're getting serious, but frankly those "half truths" may not be as off as you expect.

I know they've got a few leaders now who have been worth it, like I madly respect --har-- but as far as my opinion of how things were ran only initially this is it. I'm sorry, but i don't respect an alliance in the number 1 spot in BP and points that's going to sit back, nap the entire ocean so they can focus on one alliance, and drink a glass of whiskey. I'm not a fan of mass-napping unless it's for a coalition, otherwise personally it's just an alliance that doesn't have the balls to really fight.
 

mflip234

Guest
Guess, Havoc needs to change their profile to show this new history from Naxos. "And on naxos we came up with the art of kicking small players so we can bring in bigger players even though we know it will eventually destroy the alliance."

By the way nice work creating the longest posts on the external this year thisisgrepolis
 
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DeletedUser3109

Guest
Congrats as I actually checked some other forums and besides a newspaper I might have missed this seems to be the longest post ion the us servers currently.
 

Whytheface

Guest
@ Lomafri So basically for the less than a week you were active in Havoc you were the man with every good idea, did all the work, and no one listened to your ideas until weeks later when you had become inactively in and not in, or was it in VM? Who knows. The fact you think you need to spend to be strong out of BP says anything I need to know. As for one point you keep dredging up, what is wrong with multiple NAPs while you not only organize your alliance of players who have not gamed together before, but also focus on 1 or 2 enemies. You apparently think it is a good idea so fight most of the world simultaneously? Maybe you should try that as a leader of your own alliance, dont have to let me know how it turns out though I already know.

@mflip234 My first words were a warning this was long so Im missing the point making a big deal of something you were warned about and read anyway. Kind of like someone telling you the water is freezing cold but you jump in then complain about it anyway. My point was not to have a conversation about lengthy posts or Grepo length records, apparently yay me though, but your hypocritical MM to DS players. You made a passionate plea about loyalty and honor when the whole situation revolving DS from the time they were pacted with Havoc to when they had a mass exodus there was little to none showing from them. Yet you guys did the exact same thing with PP. Outplayed them in the long run, they had major players/leaders abandon the team for whatever reason, and Ascension picked up the left overs. As I said, with the exception of Teacher still being in DS and wanting to sink with it (No idea what if anything was said between him an his alliance), what is the difference between the 2?

Edit** As for the kicking of small players .. if they refuse to learn or be part of the team or go inactive it doesnt show loyalty from them does it? Noone mentions the bigger players that were booted for going inactive or not participating in the alliance .. funny double standard on what the facts are. And who are these little guys that everyone is fighting for? Ive personally tried to help some of the struggling players or those that were rimmed and of my several attempts got one reply from Sideous for help with getting BP that was it. How would you deal with players who do nothing for the alliance and completely ignore everyone?
 
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mflip234

Guest
LOL... We took in 5 members of PP. You guys have gotten more of the scraps then we have. Dup is nothing but an alliance jumper and a runner.. How many alliances has he jumped from. Even havoc originally turned him down. Do you think when you guys are under fire that he will stay and be loyal? U think he is gonna have the alliance's best interests at heart?
 

Whytheface

Guest
LOL... We took in 5 members of PP. You guys have gotten more of the scraps then we have. Dup is nothing but an alliance jumper and a runner.. How many alliances has he jumped from. Even havoc originally turned him down. Do you think when you guys are under fire that he will stay and be loyal? U think he is gonna have the alliance's best interests at heart?
That is above my pay grade. I dont know his past, or his reasons for his actions. Id have to actually talk to him first and get some back round on what occurred. At any rate I have my answer. It is ok for 5 players to go to a new alliance after their old one starts to fall apart, but any more than that and it is unloyal and dishonorable. Games like these if you dont assume a large part of your player base are spies or fickle, I dont know what to really say to you. It is very easy for keyboard warriors to not see players on the other side as people so unless you are with a group of tried and true friends why would your expectations be so high?

I dont speak for Havoc on any of this but for me personally I record who actually helps fight and looks to the group more often than themselves. When I have to choose who to defend, they will be the ones I pick first.
 

mflip234

Guest
That is above my pay grade. I dont know his past, or his reasons for his actions. Id have to actually talk to him first and get some back round on what occurred. At any rate I have my answer. It is ok for 5 players to go to a new alliance after their old one starts to fall apart, but any more than that and it is unloyal and dishonorable. Games like these if you dont assume a large part of your player base are spies or fickle, I dont know what to really say to you. It is very easy for keyboard warriors to not see players on the other side as people so unless you are with a group of tried and true friends why would your expectations be so high?

I dont speak for Havoc on any of this but for me personally I record who actually helps fight and looks to the group more often than themselves. When I have to choose who to defend, they will be the ones I pick first.

Tried and True friends.... Ding, Ding, Ding... WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER. :)
 

DeletedUser39

Guest
That is above my pay grade. I dont know his past, or his reasons for his actions. Id have to actually talk to him first and get some back round on what occurred. At any rate I have my answer. It is ok for 5 players to go to a new alliance after their old one starts to fall apart, but any more than that and it is unloyal and dishonorable. Games like these if you dont assume a large part of your player base are spies or fickle, I dont know what to really say to you. It is very easy for keyboard warriors to not see players on the other side as people so unless you are with a group of tried and true friends why would your expectations be so high?

I dont speak for Havoc on any of this but for me personally I record who actually helps fight and looks to the group more often than themselves. When I have to choose who to defend, they will be the ones I pick first.
There's a distinct difference between taking in 5 players that pledge their loyalty to their new alliance and poaching 20~30 or so members from an active alliance when they decide their ass is no longer safe over there. As to dupnik: I have a short conversation with him in-game that I'd love to share with you. I'm sure it shows how loyal he is. I love how he suggest to help us out with Havoc (Hey, that's you guys!), then states he applied to them as '2nd choice' in case we didn't want him. Dragon Slayers was his 3rd choice, where he eventually ended up. And now he's with you:D For your convenience, you can read from top to bottom
 

Whytheface

Guest
Tried and True friends.... Ding, Ding, Ding... WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER. :)
So what is the point of this? No one ever argued it is not better to game with people you know so you just want to repeat yourself? You know every single player in every single alliance you Grepo with? You ONLY play with tried and true friends? And just because they may not have alliance hopped doesnt make them tried and true. Still doesnt change the ONLY point I was making to begin with. Why is it so bad DS players jump ship but it was ok for PP to in the same situation? Im beginning to feel like this is a discussion with a politician. If the 5 players from PP were your tried and true friends why were you in separate alliances and at war?

The truth is the 2 situations are no different. Havoc might be taking on more than 5 DS but a lot of those DS were friends with each other apart from any alliance. Im guessing the 5 PP were friends and wanted to continue to game with each other. But it is a problem DS players join their old enemy but not PP? Why didnt the PP players join/merge with another alliance to continue to fight Ascension, if as you say loyalty and honor are at stake here?

At any rate I think youve made my point for me by avoiding the question/heart of the issue.
 

Whytheface

Guest
@ Acupuncture That is not for me to decide how loyal he will be I already mentioned I look to those who are helping the alliance first to measure my response to them. For instance if one player never helps defend, and only spams offense tab for help clearing cities above their ability I ignore them. However, why wouldnt he seek out an active cooperative alliance? No one comes to Grepo to solo play. From what Ive seen he hasnt deceived anyone, and only time will tell if he actually helps out. Can say one thing for sure, all the DS already help Havoc out by default if they are going to be the first targets =P

I will say 20-30 members is beyond ridiculous .. there is 12 or 13 new members in the last days and that is assuming they are all even from DS. As for the poaching I cant say how it started so I cant really comment on that.
 

mflip234

Guest
Are you not watching what your alliance does??? They eat all the small members or kick them, so they can try to bring in new ones just to boost the numbers. Maybe you need to step back and look at it. Could we do the same, think we could be number one. Oh wait we like our team, and only add a few people here and there, if at all... I have played with a lot of the same people for multiple servers. Some of asc has played together for a long period. Heck 20-30 of us won alpha together. Most of us have played on kappa together although on different sides. Poaching members who u think might just add points isnt a winning philosophy in grepolis. But then again, its all about pts right? What if you fall into the lower ranks, maybe you dont spend enough gold to keep up. Maybe you have to hit vm, and then you get kicked.
 

Whytheface

Guest
This will be my last response as you still are avoiding the point of the OP. Your mail to DS was hypocritical regardless of Havoc policy. And had you read my novel before responding I said several times I have personally reached out to rimmed or lower players to try to help them learn/grow stronger faster. My only response was as I said, Sideous looking for help getting BP. You guys all make this huge deal out of players being kicked but time and time again fail to acknowledge larger players who went inactive or dont do anything with the team have been kicked as well. And you still dont explain to anyone a better solution to kicking players who refuse to learn, grow, and participate. If you arent helping the team you arent very loyal are you? And wasnt that your holy grail of a point to DS players? Who I also said were getting little to no support on attacks once their leaders started leaving the server. What are they being loyal to?

From what I get from you it is better to go down with a sinking ship that literally has zero hope, Captain and several officers already abandoned you, half your alliance is MIA but stick it out because of loyalty? Unless you are the 5 PP Ascension picked up, totally different. Anyway this has become pointless banter and Im sure we both have better things to do.

Good Luck and Good Hunting!
 

Lomafri

Guest
.....apparently you're bad at reading. I said that I don't pay and I was doing fine. I know Kahlah doesn't pay, or at least she didn't used to as far as I'm concerned, it may have changed. But I know a lot of your members do pay. And that players who don't pay and don't spend 24 hours on this game may have been struggling in the beginning because some players like to focus on attacking instead of making cities. Havoc started out as an alliance (and again, my entire point is not about where you are now but how I don't like where you started) that was going to build cities for others to take. I'm pretty sure it wasn't until DS started attacking that they changed their "goals". As for the napping situation, let me share this:

Of ocean 45, havoc is napped with 6 out of the 10. One of those alliances is their own. 7 out of 10. That leaves 3 other alliances in top ten. Two are dragon slayers, so we'll count them as one. 7 out of 9. The final is inner circle who is being bludgeoned by another alliance currently. That's not called a fighting alliance that's called an alliance who doesn't think they can stand a fight. Newsflash, darling, as to your leadership retort, in en I play in a "every player is a leader" alliance that has a certain set of rules: don't be an idiot, attack who you want. And guess what? It's been months, we're still doing fine. Yeah if a certain alliance gets testy a coalition forms against them, but not one alliance who slowly picks on all the alliances around them until they're the top. Sure it's a good strategy to win. You end up having a huge core and almost no way for other alliances to break through. But it's also pretty petty.

As for the letting in spies comment you do realize how many spies that Kirruu has on his waiting list that still aren't being let in because of space? You're discounting your own argument.

As far as loyalty goes, I admit, there is one thing I'm bitter about. Check your guides tab. Check who's the one who made you all those guides. Check the offensive and defensive, whose the one who made the templates and set up the forum. When I joined havoc, I became loyal to havoc, no matter if it was second choice. I asked them to put in those tabs, I formatted the diplomacy board, I inputted my opinions on diplomatic, spy, and daily goal situation. You could not say that I was not loyal. And I continued the game with the impression that when I would come back from VM I would just have to work my butt off to catch up. May have been hard, but I could do it. And instead I came back to learn that I had already been set up for internalization, and my city had already been claimed. It was lovely, truly. Kicking me off leadership, I would have done. But I was told I could come back, and I was thrown to the dogs. I would say that it was less of havoc taking "loyal" players and more of them taking players with the biggest numbers. When I do lead alliances, I make friends. And I stay in the game and support them no matter where they go, not throw them to the dogs. I value helpful, friendly players. Yeah I like having players who are good, but it's easier to make a strong, lasting alliance with those who communicate and laugh at each other. To me, it felt like havoc didn't share that value.

**edit: I reread this and wanted to clarify something. I'm not saying I made havoc good - that was all Kirruu. Props to him, like stunning negotiating skills I don't know how he does it. But I'm just saying that I was "loyal" before I left, and I would have stayed loyal if they hadn't planned on internalizing me.
 
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DeletedUser39

Guest
This will be my last response as you still are avoiding the point of the OP. Your mail to DS was hypocritical regardless of Havoc policy. And had you read my novel before responding I said several times I have personally reached out to rimmed or lower players to try to help them learn/grow stronger faster. My only response was as I said, Sideous looking for help getting BP. You guys all make this huge deal out of players being kicked but time and time again fail to acknowledge larger players who went inactive or dont do anything with the team have been kicked as well. And you still dont explain to anyone a better solution to kicking players who refuse to learn, grow, and participate. If you arent helping the team you arent very loyal are you? And wasnt that your holy grail of a point to DS players? Who I also said were getting little to no support on attacks once their leaders started leaving the server. What are they being loyal to?

From what I get from you it is better to go down with a sinking ship that literally has zero hope, Captain and several officers already abandoned you, half your alliance is MIA but stick it out because of loyalty? Unless you are the 5 PP Ascension picked up, totally different. Anyway this has become pointless banter and Im sure we both have better things to do.

Good Luck and Good Hunting!
The difference is quite simple. Yes, we took in 5 players from PP. However, before we even remotely considered it, there's been a lot of talks and discussing as to how and what. We wanted to make sure that those we got amongst our ranks, would be devoted to Ascension, had no chance of being a spy, were willing to assist in any way necessary and most of all, were fun, good people. The short version: first we analysed, then we took them in.

Now as for you taking in DS: Yes, you took in ~13 (according to you - I'll take your word on that) players from DS after a short 'war'. The difference seems to be that your leadership didn't carefully look into each of them, or discussed it very thoroughly: you simply took them in. From your earlier posts, it's also apparant that you have several players amongst your ranks that are in the alliance, but don't contribute or just spam nonsense that's beneficial to themselves: how'd they get in there? Well, let me share with you: because your leadership does the same as ours does, but the other way around - first you take them in, then you analyse them.

So, as to your question that we tried so hard to avoid answering, but couldn't escape its clutches: The difference is that we take in players after we got to know them. You take in players and hope you'll know a few of them somewhere in the future.
 

Whytheface

Guest
@ Lomafri Well Im sorry you potentially got a bum deal. I dont know exactly what was said between you and Kirruu/Kahlah and what lead to you personally being put on the chopping block. However the first 4 rimmed Havoc and several low players that seemed to be struggling I mailed directly with offers to help. No reply. I then posted offers to help players get BP and cities in my area. One reply. From what I understand as long as you discuss your absence ahead of time it isnt a problem and you can see from my perspective none of these players wanted to try to be part of the team. When anyone goes inactive for whatever reason that is something I cant control or generally know about.

I never said you did not contribute at the start, but your time in and amount you claim to have done is exaggerated and not really the point of this post to begin with(There is nothing after Aug 6 from you and 5 guides in 4 pages of them). While you did say YOU dont spend gold, you did imply you cant be successful out of BP as an attacker and builder w/o spending. If you are not being harassed you pick your targets wisely like I did and you get loot, BP, and a good city just by slowly working up to bigger targets. I did not spend until Thracian finally hit our server.

As for spies and NAPs this is a war game. Explain to me how I discounted my own argument about spies? I said to expect them in your alliance and never once mentioned Kirruu's spy waiting list. You dont think our enemies wont do exactly that to us? And do NAPs to come after us? Your comment about how you attack willy nilly just fine on another server doesnt make attacking the whole world simultaneously smart ever period. You want a fair war game? Play chess. Otherwise you are here for fun and to win.

@Acupuncture Havoc policy was never the issue here it was the hypocrisy in the DS MM. Kirruu does things differently than you we get that. I ask you this though. How do you know Kirruu didnt talk to the DS that came over? You are making an assumption about a process and nothing to back up your claim. And even if true, lets argue it was a blind acceptance and quick yay lets grab some DS(Im not saying it was because I dont know) the point is simple. Our enemies jumped a sinking ship to join those they were fighting .. exactly what PP did and what mflip blasted DS for but not PP.
 

DeletedUser39

Guest
@Acupuncture Havoc policy was never the issue here it was the hypocrisy in the DS MM.
You asked what the difference was between us bringing in PP people and you bringing in DS people. I gave you your answer.

How do you know Kirruu didnt talk to the DS that came over?
By the simple fact he took in players such as dupnik. 2 messages was all it took us to see he was not worthy to be in Ascension, guessing it only took 1 message to tell him he was welcome on the Havoc ship.