Bireme city vs. Trireme city

DeletedUser

Guest
We all know about committing an entire city to building Biremes for naval defensive support for your attacking cities, but has the idea of a city of Triremes possibly being a better choice ever been considered. I tried searching for a comparison of the two and was not able to find one, however if you know of one please feel free to post the link in a comment and I will check it out. Anyway the reason for this post is to make a comparison between having a Bireme or Trireme city.

Bireme

Research
Academy level 13

Att: 24
Def: 160
Speed: 45

Costs

Wood: 800
Stone: 700
Silver: 180
Pop: 8


Trireme

Research
Academy level 25

Att: 180
Def: 250
Speed: 27

Costs

Wood: 2000
Stone: 1300
Silver: 900
Pop: 16


So lets first look at some of the obvious comparisons. Biremes serve as a cheaper defensive only naval unit offering practically no attack. They take half the pop [8] that a trireme does (16) so population wise 2 biremes = 1 trireme which would look like this

2 Biremes

Att: 48
Def: 320
Speed: 45

Wood: 1600
Stone: 1400
Silver: 360
Pop: 16


1 Trireme

Att: 180
Def: 250
Speed: 27

Wood: 2000
Stone: 1300
Silver: 900
Pop: 16


The two biremes cost less, offer 110 more defense, and are 18 points faster in speed. However the 1 trireme offers an attack of 180 which is high enough that it can be used for an offensive naval attack and takes less time to build.

Conclusion:
Biremes are the better pure defensive naval unit hands down, they cost less, offer more defense, and have a faster speed which can be critical for sending them to defend one of your cities that may be under attack. However triremes while they offer less defense for a higher cost can also be use as an offensive naval unit. In retrospect, having a city of triremes would be comparable to having a less effective LS nuke and a less effective bireme city. So basically you would sacrifice on defense to have a fleet of triremes that could be used like an LS nuke in times of emergency. Also a big draw back of triremes is the required lv 25 academy compared to the required lv 13 academy for biremes, meaning it will take much longer to even get your fleet of triremes started to begin with.

How having Triremes could be better:
Basically is't the possibility of being able to use them as an attacking and defending naval fleet. I know that many of you may be thinking "yes but I could just do the traditional LS nuke and bireme city for defense" but a city of triremes would allow you to have an additional attacking fleet, were as with a city of biremes you are locked into having a city that is purely defensive.

Imagine that an ally of yours is currently having his city being taken over, you send in your LS nuke but its not enough to break the siege. With a city of triremes you could use your fleet of triremes to for a second attack to possibly break the siege. Granted in doing so you would lose your defensive naval fleet but would have saved an allies city.

Overall Conclusion:
In the long run using bireme cities are probably the better choice in the long run as the perk of being able to use triremes to attack and defend becomes obsolete after a player gets multiple LS nukes. Along with the main purpose of having a defensive naval city is defense which biremes are the clear winner in, and always is the required level 25 academy to even start building triremes.

Feel free to leave your own opinions on the subject, also I was unable to find construction times for these two units with a level one harbor
 

DeletedUser

Guest
True, originally it was suppose to be more of a question or a proposal but I ended up getting more in depth then I had intended to.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
IMO. Triremes would only be effective if they were paired with a CS attacking force. They'll be there with their attack power if the target gets some last minute naval support and will be there to defend if the target attempts to snipe a CS. They should only be utilized on islands you plan to CS from.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Yeah, instead of using 1 LS, you could have 1 Trireme and be able to clear just about as much as 1 LS could and when it lands, it'll have more defense power than a Birm would at defending at the Harbor. So I'd have to agree with Borys here.
 

DeletedUser5638

Guest
On another world I use Triremes only for My CQ city that's the only time I'd suggest using them, Biremes are simply much better at defense per Population/Resources used.
 

DeletedUser7016

Guest
Trireme are not strong as the bireme in defense or lightship in attack...but I think that they can be used:
- when you need to timing a support using 1 trireme+support
- for an attack with trireme(70% of the fleet)+lightships (30% of the fleet)+colony ship when you need to conquer a city...in particular when you know that some enemies could snipe your cs by sea...
That means the conquest must be supported in attack with nukes of lightships 5-15 sec before the arrival of trireme+ls+cs

But I'll never build a "nuke trireme" because they are slow and not really strong both in attack and defense
 

DeletedUser298

Guest
The number of ships do not matter. It is the stats that matter :p In the long run, birmes are the better option as you get a better defensive value per population.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Excellent!!! i was contemplating this question my self and with this i have my answer will post this in my alliance
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I think this all changes when (if?) rebalancing goes into effect. If triremes become faster and have better attack stats, they become much more attractive.

I think you should also consider build times. Although a trireme's defense/population ratio is less than the bireme, it's defense/hour of build time is actually greater. So it really depends how often you are defending. If your bireme city is at max pop most of the time, biremes are better. If you're constantly using and rebuilding, then triremes might be stronger.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Here is my problem with your entire theory, you never factored in light ships to the equation.

Numbers don't lie my friend, always rely on the math:

Light Ships:
attack: 200
Speed: 39
Defense: 60
Pop: 10

Triremes:
attack: 180
Speed: 27
Defense: 250
pop: 16

Biremes:
attack: 24
speed:45
Defense: 160
pop: 8

Bireme and Lightship combinations that equal about the sam pop as a Trireme

2 Biremes:
attack: 48
speed: 45
defense: 320
pop: 16

2 Lightships
attack: 400
speed: 39
Defense:120
pop: 20

1LS + 1Bireme for a mixed Fleet:
attack: 224- 200 when split and only using Light Ship
speed: 39 - 45 when split and only using Bir
defense: 220 - 160 when Split and only using Bireme, which means you now split the pop in half giving you more bang for your buck.
pop: 18 - 10 per LS - 8 per Bir

once again the Trireme for a mixed fleet:
attack: 180
Speed: 27
Defense: 250
pop: 16

Best thing about the 1 Bir 1 LS mixed fleet is you only send what you need meanwhile the trireme moves as a whole, and slower at that While the Bir and LS take up 2 more pop. The 1 LS and 1 Bir are the stronger attacker while the trireme takes the defensive belt for mixed fleets.

Cost wise:
1 bir + 1 LS= 2100 Wood, 1000 Stone, 980 Silver
Trireme= 2000 Wood, 1300 Stone, 900 Silver

Trireme = 120 more resources than 1 bir + 1 LS

If someone wants a mixed fleet use these numbers to help you decide. If your only worried about 1 specialization forget Triremes. If speed is a priority than forget triremes.

My thoughts:

I believe the difference in speed and the ability to split the attack and defense is the reason why I crown Light ships with Biremes as the Championship mixed fleet.

The fact that Triremes aren't even slower than transports means they aren't even worth using to fake a colony ship attack. In my opinion I dub Triremes as worthless, not even worth their own weight in Salt.

Now taking Triremes out of the equation because of their lackluster stats, I believe the true question you were trying to ask was:

Mixed Fleet City Versus Pure Bireme City?

- I'm assuming Triremes true design was as an escort for colony ships, which makes them a little more useful in Conquest where sieges must be held, and the CS is slow to begin with, but still pretty useless in Revolt.- it all comes to a matter of preference as you stated earlier who wants to wait for academy 25 when the mixxed of birs, and LS delivers almost the same package, if not more since you can change the ratio of bir's to Light Ships to whatever you want instead of keeping it a solid 1:1 ratio with the trireme.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
I don't know if you were responding to me or not, but I'm well aware of the bang/population and bang/resource advantages of the ls or the bireme over the trireme. My point was that the trireme has a bang/hour of build time advantage. If you have the resources, and you never seem to get your ls or bireme cities up to full pop (so they're constantly building), the trireme might be better for you.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I don't know if you were responding to me or not, but I'm well aware of the bang/population and bang/resource advantages of the ls or the bireme over the trireme. My point was that the trireme has a bang/hour of build time advantage. If you have the resources, and you never seem to get your ls or bireme cities up to full pop (so they're constantly building), the trireme might be better for you.

Triremes build faster, yes. However, if you stack triremes at your cities you'll be using the same ships for both attack and defense. Separating that into LS/Birs let's you attack while still having defense. And in pure off/def cities you'll only be stacking birs or LS, never both, which makes for much better defense/offense than if you are using triremes.
Personally, I never use triremes. Not even for CS escort. But that's just me.

~Torgaddon
 

DeletedUser

Guest
if you stack triremes at your cities you'll be using the same ships for both attack and defense. Separating that into LS/Birs let's you attack while still having defense.

Thanks. I was waiting till someone points that out! I think this, not the stats on the ships is the largest drawback to any trireme builds.
 
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